Let Your Soul Be Your Pilot

[lunamoth]

Warning! Uninformed pop psychology ahead! I know Freud is dead! But maybe you all who know more can clue me in...


If the Id = our animal nature, our instincts and traits that help us in our struggle for survival (selfish)

and Ego = our emotional life (reactive)

and Superego = our best self (altruistic), that which resists selfishness and our Id


Could it be said that our Superego is our soul? And does it follow that our soul is supernatural in that it overcomes our natural selfish instincts?


OK, release the hounds!

 

[Buttercup]

Could it be said that our Superego is our soul? And does it follow that our soul is supernatural in that it overcomes our natural selfish instincts?

It's early and I'm on my first cup of coffee so take that into consideration upon reading my answer.....

My thought is that we never overcome our selfish instincts, why would we? It's instinctual to protect our psyche. Unless you're defining the "soul" after we die?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I never would have thought that the SUperego does the resisting, but in my view, no. The soul i dont think has anything to do with the body, because a lot of emotion is there because of the body, so, no. Really hard to describe what i mean.

 

[Popeyesays]

Warning! Uninformed pop psychology ahead! I know Freud is dead! But maybe you all who know more can clue me in...


If the Id = our animal nature, our instincts and traits that help us in our struggle for survival (selfish)

and Ego = our emotional life (reactive)

and Superego = our best self (altruistic), that which resists selfishness and our Id


Could it be said that our Superego is our soul? And does it follow that our soul is supernatural in that it overcomes our natural selfish instincts?


OK, release the hounds!

Freud is describing the mind which does not even include the physical body. I don't think his nomenclature covers the "soul". To my estimation the soul is associated with the body at conception. The soul is not contained within the body and the body is not contained within the soul, so there's no easy description of that "association".

Man's intellect and rationality is tightly linked to the soul--Abdu'l Baha describes that union as "the rational soul". He puts it better than I:

"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.
But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit, and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 316)

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

It's early and I'm on my first cup of coffee so take that into consideration upon reading my answer....

My thought is that we never overcome our selfish instincts, why would we? It's instinctual to protect our psyche. Unless you're defining the "soul" after we die?

:coffee2: :coffee2:

I don't think we overcome our selfish instincts completely, and yes there is a self-protection function that we do still need for survival. But it could be a matter of balance, and allowing reason to predominate when fight or flight is not necessary. I think using reason over reactive emotion is something that can be practiced and strengthened, by becoming more aware of our thoughts and actions.

I don't really have a good definition of soul...guess that's part of what I'm exploring here. I think that something of us does live on after physical death. In Christianity the body and soul are intertwined. You can't have a disembodied soul, I don't think. The idea of a spirit part of us that lives on separate from our body is, to my understanding, foreign to Christian theology.

 

[lunamoth]

I never would have thought that the SUperego does the resisting, but in my view, no. The soul i dont think has anything to do with the body, because a lot of emotion is there because of the body, so, no. Really hard to describe what i mean.

Interesting penguino. As I just said above to Rhonda, I thought the soul had everything to do with the body. This is related to the Christian idea of resurrection. It's not just a disembodied spirit-soul that lives on after death, but a spiritual body. Now, that spiritual body (I would think) is very unlike the physical bodies we have now. What is a body if not physical? I don't know. But to me the idea of a body of some sort makes sense if we are to keep any aspect of our individual self. If as some believe that we simply meld with the One and lose all consciousness of our individual self, and this would have to include any continued sense of love or relationship with others that I've known in this life, then the body would not be necessary.

It is hard to describe...and it is all speculation and interesting imagination at this point.

But, it really rings true to me when Paul says that this body is sown like a seed which perishes and what rises(grows) is both completely like the seed, and completely unlike it. Guess that's because I like plants.

 

[lunamoth]

Freud is describing the mind which does not even include the physical body.

Really? I can't argue with you because I have no idea but I'm very surprised that Freud thought that the mind is not part of the body.

I don't think his nomenclature covers the "soul". To my estimation the soul is associated with the body at conception. The soul is not contained within the body and the body is not contained within the soul, so there's no easy description of that "association".

I agree with you here...I would not say that the body contains the soul as much as it manifests the soul. I content to leave the nature of that association fuzzy, although as I said above I really like to think of the metaphor of the seed that perishes, yet becomes a wheat plant which is identical to the seed and yet a completely different form. In the seed it is the DNA which carries the traits of the seed. I think it is the soul that carries the traits of oneself to the transformed self. The DNA is part of the seed and the plant, and it is the same in each. The soul is part of the physical body and the resurrected body, and it is the same in each.

Man's intellect and rationality is tightly linked to the soul--Abdu'l Baha describes that union as "the rational soul".

Tightly linked? As long as you are not saying that they are symbols for the same thing. I don't think intellect and rationality have a direct link to the soul. I associate those traits with the physical brain. Guess I'm kind of talking myself out of the idea that the superego is the soul, although I think that the soul is what strives to bring us to our highest potential, which I would measure as our ability to love God and each other. And it is through reason and compassion that we do this.

 

[Popeyesays]

Luna,

I pretty much agree completely.

I think Freud believe the mind could gridlock the body, but that was a very complex manifestation of events. Rational thought and 'mind' are not entirely the same in my book.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Buttercup]

I don't really have a good definition of soul...guess that's part of what I'm exploring here. I think that something of us does live on after physical death. In Christianity the body and soul are intertwined. You can't have a disembodied soul, I don't think. The idea of a spirit part of us that lives on separate from our body is, to my understanding, foreign to Christian theology.

Steering away from the Freudian outlook, as a Christian, don't you think our soul 'as is' when we're alive is not the same soul we'll have after death?

And, isn't it after the Great Judgement when our souls & bodies unite?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I would suggest our super ego is in contact with our soul in much the same way as the Holy spirit is in contact with our soul.
Unfortunately we can ignore both of them.
That is the major problem with freedom of choice.

However with out freedom of choice, we could not grow as an individual nor as a species.

 

[lunamoth]

Steering away from the Freudian outlook, as a Christian, don't you think our soul 'as is' when we're alive is not the same soul we'll have after death?

And, isn't it after the Great Judgement when our souls & bodies unite?

Hi Rhonda,

Those are both new ideas to me. I've always thought that the soul is eternally 'us' from the moment we come into being until death...and beyond. It's angels dancing on pins, but ads I always think of it the soul can be nourished, transformed, strengthened, but it is still our soul.

As I said to Scott, I've always imagined that the soul stays the same, although after the resurrection the body is transformed to its eternal, imperishable state. The resurrection body is to this body as the plant is to the seed. There is nothing left of the seed once the plant has grown, yet it is still the same organism.

 

[lunamoth]

I would suggest our super ego is in contact with our soul in much the same way as the Holy spirit is in contact with our soul.
Unfortunately we can ignore both of them.
That is the major problem with freedom of choice.

However with out freedom of choice, we could not grow as an individual nor as a species.

Interesting way of looking at it Terry. Sort of, the best of ourself working in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to assist the soul as it strives toward God/Love.

Yes, growth is dependent upon disequilibrium and ability to choose. Thanks for the post!

 

[Buttercup]

Hi Rhonda,
Those are both new ideas to me. I've always thought that the soul is eternally 'us' from the moment we come into being until death...and beyond. It's angels dancing on pins, but ads I always think of it the soul can be nourished, transformed, strengthened, but it is still our soul.

I don't mean that we get a new soul, we were taught (in Sunday school and church) that our soul after death is pure because of Christ. In other words, we're the same but different, we're clean eternally. Not sure if that makes sense. We took it as a 'cleaned up and incorruptible' soul.

As I said to Scott, I've always imagined that the soul stays the same, although after the resurrection the body is transformed to its eternal, imperishable state. The resurrection body is to this body as the plant is to the seed. There is nothing left of the seed once the plant has grown, yet it is still the same organism.

So are you agreeing that our souls and bodies do not unite until after judgment? I'm not clear here.

 

[lunamoth]

So are you agreeing that our souls and bodies do not unite until after judgment? I'm not clear here.

Well, whether we would be 'judged' immediately at the time of physical death or if we were 'asleep' until final judgement, either way it will seem to happen right away as far as we are concerned. I don't think there is any separation of our soul from our body, so there is also no need to unite.

Frankly Rhonda, this is all just metaphor that has more to do with how we order this life. Just so you know that's where I'm coming from.

As for 'cleaned up and incorruptible,' here is how I think about it. God is love. The only thing that can be in the presence of God is love. Anything that is part of us that is not love will be left behind. Anything that is love will go on. The 'purification' refers to the 'burning away' of anything that is not love. Will it be experienced as fire? Well, I think it will be painful (in a metaphorical way) to see clearly how all of our actions affected others over the course of our lives. But at the same time, there is acceptance, forgiveness, grace, unconditional love.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, whether we would be 'judged' immediately at the time of physical death or if we were 'asleep' until final judgement, either way it will seem to happen right away as far as we are concerned. I don't think there is any separation of our soul from our body, so there is also no need to unite.

oh, I see. Guess our denomination thought of it differently.

Frankly Rhonda, this is all just metaphor that has more to do with how we order this life. Just so you know that's where I'm coming from.

It's hard for me to talk about soul without talking about after death. Lead us where you will sister Luna!

As for 'cleaned up and incorruptible,' here is how I think about it. God is love. The only thing that can be in the presence of God is love. Anything that is part of us that is not love will be left behind. Anything that is love will go on. The 'purification' refers to the 'burning away' of anything that is not love. Will it be experienced as fire? Well, I think it will be painful (in a metaphorical way) to see clearly how all of our actions affected others over the course of our lives. But at the same time, there is acceptance, forgiveness, grace, unconditional love.

Yep, I think so too.

 

[lunamoth]

oh, I see. Guess our denomination thought of it differently.

I would not say that is an 'Episcopalian' teaching. I've never heard anything taught as hard and fast about such things. And even if so...it does not seem like a very important point to me.

It's hard for me to talk about soul without talking about after death.

So what's your soul doing for you now, during life?

Lead us where you will sister Luna!

Ha ha! The blind leading the blind that one.

Yep, I think so too.

That's pretty much all you need, IMO.

 

[Buttercup]

I would not say that is an 'Episcopalian' teaching. I've never heard anything taught as hard and fast about such things. And even if so...it does not seem like a very important point to me.

Ha! When you come from a dispensationalist church, lots of views are different.

So what's your soul doing for you now, during life?

I view 'soul' as a place where our true motivations, fears & desires reside, our basic personality.

What's it doing for me? Hopefully it's continuing to learn how to live truthfully with myself....and to be a generous and kind person. Not much else matters really.

 

[lunamoth]

What's it doing for me? Hopefully it's continuing to learn how to live truthfully with myself....and to be a generous and kind person. Not much else matters really.

 

[Buttercup]

:biglaugh: Ok, could you give more details behind your displeasure?

 

[lunamoth]

:biglaugh: Ok, could you give more details behind your displeasure?

I thought that 'cool' was an expression of agreement and appreciation.

Have I been getting it wrong all this time?