LDS Only: Creation Account in Genesis

[madhatter85]

Or simply put, Cro-magnan, Neanderthal and other similar species were separate and much like other animals on the planet which died out before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I suppose they had a specific purpose. Maybe they were meant to be here during the evolutionary process of the earth to help tend to and beautify it? Maybe the last of them were the ones that did the physical planting of the Garden of Eden?

Okay, well that has some similarities to what I believe. What do you think about Adam and Eve bringing death into the world by their transgression, though? Do you believe there was death before Adam? Or were there man-like beings (Cro-magnon man, etc.) still wandering around up until Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, thousands of years old? And what about other prehistoric life forms such as the dinosaurs? Did they did before Adam transgressed? Or did the phrase, "you will surely die" mean only that they would suffer spiritual death (i.e. separation from God)?

This subject is extremely Interesting to me and I have yet to really define what I think about it "to a T."

Seeing as cro-magnan and neadrethal buried their dead, there would have been death before Adam. In scripture I believe, due to the language used, there is room for this line of thought.
Moses 6:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

D&C 29:

41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.


42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.


43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

It doesn't specifically say there was no death before hand. It states that the fall bringeth death to Adam, Eve, and their progeny. The fall, and subsequent spiritual death was only applicable to Mankind. I'm sure it had an effect on the rest of the world but to what extent it does not line out everything in scripture.
Animals, all creeping things, and the earth itself abide the celestial laws and are governed by thier own set of rules by God. I would most likely postulate there was death outside of the bounds of the Garden and that scripture does not define that there was no death in the earth previous to The Fall. and that the death caused by the fall was only applicable to Man.

 

[ftv1975]

As usual, Katzpur is right and the rest foolish.

Or, perhaps I'm foolish in how I phrased the question.

I'm simply asking whether you believe the LDS portrayal of the Creation historically happened or is a myth/story/allegory provided by God?

Oh! yes i think the LDS portrayal of the Creation Historically happened.

 

[ftv1975]

Bruce R. McConkie has written some things about Evolution. I would Question the acuracy on carbon dating.

 

[FFH]

The discussion of the Book of Mormon in the other thread prompted this question.

Do you believe the Genesis account of the Creation and the Temple endowment portrayal of same literally happened and is historical fact or is a myth/story/allegory from God to teach us truth?

It's all literal Watchemen, even the bit where satan talks through, and tempts EVE with, a snake/serpent.

One thousand years is as ONE DAY with the LORD.

Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE with the LORD.

The EARTH hangs upon NOTHING.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

Job 26
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Psalms 139: 14
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Jesus said, paraphrasing, "How happy are those who have no doubts about me".

 

[Watchmen]

Bruce R. McConkie has written some things about Evolution. I would Question the acuracy on carbon dating.

I would question the accuracy of Bruce R. McConkie (but that's another thread).

 

[ftv1975]

I would question the accuracy of Bruce R. McConkie (but that's another thread).

i am confused! do you not have a tesimony of the church? Do you put more faith in changing science than revealed truth? Do you feel that carbon dating is 100% acurate?

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I remember being in a General Studies lesson at school where the teacher talked about the evolution of man and how it is considered that there was a drastic increase in intelligence which is said to coincide roughly with the time that religion first began, and thus about the time we would assume Adam came from. I am of the opinion that human evolution occurred and that Adam would be a product of that evolution, but that he (and perhaps his generation and prodigy) were set apart and granted the greater intelligence, conscience and spirit that we associate with being 'human'. Thus I would believe that he would be the first great 'human' patriarch - I don't think LDS faith would allow for Adam not to have existed literally at all. Eve would also probably have to be a literal figure, but I doubt she would have needed to have been created from Adam's rib.

Thus I think the garden of Eden, and eating of the fruit were likely allegorical to illustrate the ascension of man from his animal state, and thus his ability to fall from this higher standard. I am not of the opinion that this would be the source of all mortality, for there must have been death before if we are to believe an evolutionary process got us to that point. It would be spiritual mortality that is the new death that was introduced by the ability to know good and evil, and still sin. My theory would be that all creatures to this point were incapable of sin.

This view solves the problem of apparent need for incest to propagate the human species too, Adam's children would have had peers outside of the family that they could breed with.

But I respect that this is my personal opinion, and others may think otherwise.

 

[Katzpur]

It doesn't specifically say there was no death before hand. It states that the fall bringeth death to Adam, Eve, and their progeny. The fall, and subsequent spiritual death was only applicable to Mankind. I'm sure it had an effect on the rest of the world but to what extent it does not line out everything in scripture. Animals, all creeping things, and the earth itself abide the celestial laws and are governed by thier own set of rules by God. I would most likely postulate there was death outside of the bounds of the Garden and that scripture does not define that there was no death in the earth previous to The Fall. and that the death caused by the fall was only applicable to Man.

Well, Madhatter, I never thought I'd see the day when you and I would agree on something this open to interpretation. And while we don't agree fully, we do seem to agree on this topic to a greater extent than we disagree.

I actually believe in evolution, but I believed that God was always at the helm. I believe that there were earlier forms of man, men who more closely resembled the great apes and men who more closely resembled Adam. Later men probably had quite a bit in common with Adam but they did not have a human spirit. In other words, they were not the spirit sons and daughters of God; they were not His offspring. They were not created in His image, after His likeness. They would not be a part of the family of God in the eternities to come as God's own children will be. (That's not to say that they are unimportant to God. Since He sees the sparrow's fall and has said that nothing He created will ultimately be displayed, I believe there will be a resurrection for these creatures, too.)

At any rate, I believe that God did, at some point, instill the human spirit into a man, Adam, and a woman, Eve. I believe He placed them in a paradise of some sort and that they were, in fact, given commandments which they were tempted to disobey. There is probably a certain amount of allegory in the Genesis account of the Fall, but a certain amount of actual truth, too. The truth part, as I see it, is that they were somehow a separate species from life on the outside. They had no knowledge of the outside. They succumbed to temptation and tried to take a shortcut to becoming gods, at which point they lost the imtimate day-to-day connection they'd previously had with God and experienced spiritual death. They were cast out of the Garden and entered into the terrestrial world where they would live out the rest of their mortal lives.

Just my two cents worth. Take it for what it's worth. Probably about two cents.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh! yes i think the LDS portrayal of the Creation Historically happened.

Do you believe God created the earth in six days and rested the seventh and that the earth has only been populated for roughly 6000 years? Could you explain the evidence of prior life on the earth?

 

[Katzpur]

This view solves the problem of apparent need for incest to propagate the human species too, Adam's children would have had peers outside of the family that they could breed with.

I've given this some thought, and it occurred to me that the prohibition against incest did not exist for a very long time after Adam. While it's entirely possible that his children mated with others who were outside of Eden, they could have mated with each other, too, without it being considered by God to be sinful.

 

[madhatter85]

I actually believe in evolution, but I believed that God was always at the helm. I believe that there were earlier forms of man, men who more closely resembled the great apes and men who more closely resembled Adam. Later men probably had quite a bit in common with Adam but they did not have a human spirit. In other words, they were not the spirit sons and daughters of God; they were not His offspring. They were not created in His image, after His likeness. They would not be a part of the family of God in the eternities to come as God's own children will be. (That's not to say that they are unimportant to God. Since He sees the sparrow's fall and has said that nothing He created will ultimately be displayed, I believe there will be a resurrection for these creatures, too.)

It's a good theory except for one question it brings up. When I pondered my position I toyed with exactly your line of thought, However when i thought "What if they had no spirit?" This first thing that came to my mind was how everything, even the earth itself, was created spiritually before physically. and The Lord has stated that he created everything spiritually first. I don't think these lower species of humanoids would be any different. this then made me reconsider the possibilities and I came to the conclusion i posted previously.

one other thing i thought of is how they buried their dead. It doesn't seem possible to me that they would be soulless creatures. They lived in family units and no matter their limited function, the basic family principle was still in effect.

 

[Watchmen]

i am confused! do you not have a tesimony of the church? Do you put more faith in changing science than revealed truth? Do you feel that carbon dating is 100% acurate?

I have a testimony of the church - not of McConkie's opinions (which books like "Mormon Doctrine" are filled with).

 

[Katzpur]

It's a good theory except for one question it brings up. When I pondered my position I toyed with exactly your line of thought, However when i thought "What if they had no spirit?" This first thing that came to my mind was how everything, even the earth itself, was created spiritually before physically. and The Lord has stated that he created everything spiritually first. I don't think these lower species of humanoids would be any different. this then made me reconsider the possibilities and I came to the conclusion i posted previously.

one other thing i thought of is how they buried their dead. It doesn't seem possible to me that they would be soulless creatures. They lived in family units and no matter their limited function, the basic family principle was still in effect.

Okay, you misunderstood me on one point. I didn't say they had no spirit. I definitely believe they did have a spirit. I am absolutely convinced that my pets have spirits, that all life has a spirit. It's just not a "human" spirit as we know it. That's why I consider Adam and Eve to be our first parents. I believe that it was with them that the human spirit, a spirit like God's spirit, was first infused into the species.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I've given this some thought, and it occurred to me that the prohibition against incest did not exist for a very long time after Adam. While it's entirely possible that his children mated with others who were outside of Eden, they could have mated with each other, too, without it being considered by God to be sinful.

I guess the prohibition hadn't been instilled at that point, but it is also a consideration from a genetic standpoint that reproducing with close relatives tends to increase the risk of genetic disease. That issue would be avoided if Adam and Eve were among many, rather than unique creations.

 

[ftv1975]

I have a testimony of the church - not of McConkie's opinions (which books like "Mormon Doctrine" are filled with).

Okay i understand.

 

[ftv1975]

watchmen

have you read "The Origin of Man" published by the church

 

[Watchmen]

watchmen

have you read "The Origin of Man" published by the church

Nope.

 

[idea]

The discussion of the Book of Mormon in the other thread prompted this question.

Do you believe the Genesis account of the Creation and the Temple endowment portrayal of same literally happened and is historical fact or is a myth/story/allegory from God to teach us truth?

A little bit of both.

The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood
Spencer W. Kimball
"The story of the rib, of course, is figurative."

John A Widtsoe, General Authority: "The statement that man was made from the dust of the earth is merely figurative...Likewise the statement that God breathed into man the breath of life is figurative."

But what about Adam and Eve? How do you personally (all of you -- I'm not directing this post at anybody in particular) reconcile the fact that Adam and Eve are generally referred to as "our first parents" or something of that sort and the fact that science has pretty much provided extensive evidence of "men" before Adam (i.e. Cro-magnan man, Neaderthal man, Homo-erectus, etc.). I have my own interpretation and Watchmen has his. I'm wondering what yours is.

I believe
- Adam and Eve were real people
- There was a fall from perfection
- this fall necessitated the Plan of Salvation

When Adam and Eve were created, their bodies were not mortal, they were perfect celestial beings, they could not die or have children, and they did not know right from wrong.

As far as the dinos go?

Joseph Smithsaid, "This earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broke up and remodelled and made into the one on which we live".

reminds me of:

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(Old Testament | Isaiah65:17)



I posted this before:

About starting out with a void (not starting with nothing)

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]KJV Gen 1:1-2[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1 IN the beginning God formed the heaven and the earth.
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1 - 2)

a better translation would be:

1 IN a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth had become without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1 - 2)

notice "had become" - in otherwords, the Earth had one civilization, then the original civilization fell, became fallen, void, without form, and another civilization was then built on the ruins of the first. (The prior civilization involved dinosaurs by the way)

Don't believe me? see for yourself:
the word translated "was" in the KJV is:
hayah
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
a) (Qal)
1) -----
a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b) to come about, come to pass

Here is Gen 1:2 - click on "was" and you will find hayah
Genesis 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)


So the Bible does not teach "something from nothing" nor does it teach that Eden was the first creation on this planet.

Consider a farmer – farmer comes to a new piece of land, and what is the first thing they do? They clear the land. Cut/burn, haul away trees etc. etc.. then install irrigation, check seasons/ how much light etc… determine what to plant – only after they cleared everything else out have the ground prepared, do they start planting what they want to grow etc. etc.

I think it was the same with this Earth. So the gods look around, find one of the rare planets that can support life, in fact does have lower life forms growing on it, and decide it’s a good spot. Like the farmer, they first clear the land. They send a comet with just the right speed/etc to wipe everything out while preserving the life sustaining qualities of the planet. So everything is wiped out, extinction level event, and then the gods give the planet a new name, they might adjust the orbit slightly, add a little water, adjust a few variables – just like a farmer, situate everything and get everything just right, then They plant Eden – paradise, perfection, start everything fresh/new. And things progress from there.

We know about the flood, we also know about armagedon... God coming in, wiping everything out, and starting over.... this is not a new concept.

Now you know who killed the dinos.
[/FONT][/FONT]

I think Eden happened after another creation - another world, was destroyed.

 

[idea]

Nope.

LDS.org - Ensign Article____

"It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. "

see also info from the Scopes trial

"'Mormon' View of Evolution," published over the signatures of Heber J. Grant, Anthony W. Ivins, and Charles W. Nibley, the LDS First Presidency.80 In essence, it consists of paragraphs 3, 6, 7, 12, 16, and 17 of the 1909 statement by Joseph F. Smith, et. al., with only a very few changes in text: deletion of a word or two, addition of several words for clarification, etc. Paragraphs 13 and 14, the 'antievolution' ones (quoted above), are conspicuously absent. The entire message of the statement is to affirm the spiritual pedigree of man and the common descent of all men from an ancestor named Adam, who had taken upon himself "an appropriate body."

IOW - say what you want to about animals, but leave humans out of evolution. We decended from Adam and Eve, who decended from God. Not apes.

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
(New Testament | Luke3:38)

Adam was a son of God, as are we.

 

[madhatter85]

Okay, you misunderstood me on one point. I didn't say they had no spirit. I definitely believe they did have a spirit. I am absolutely convinced that my pets have spirits, that all life has a spirit. It's just not a "human" spirit as we know it. That's why I consider Adam and Eve to be our first parents. I believe that it was with them that the human spirit, a spirit like God's spirit, was first infused into the species.

do you believe that animals and such are resurrected?

I am inclined to believe that animals and such are not subject to being resurrected. I think that the idea of re-incarnation may be applicable to animals. I don't believe it strictly or anything but i would propose it as a possibility.