irrelevant and pretentious.
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LDS Only: California Gay Marriage Initiative: Should the Church Fight It (again)?
- Thread starter Watchmen
- Start date
irrelevant and pretentious.
idea
Question Everything
Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?
Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?
ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.
here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors
View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073003.html
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17353
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals
where does it stop?
...."ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach"
Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?
ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.
here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors
View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073003.html
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17353
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals
where does it stop?
...."ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach"
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idea
Question Everything
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are" ...
"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley)
some people pick and choose what to follow, and what not to follow...
LDS.org - Ensign Article - Sustaining the Prophets
When we raised our hands, we not only just did it in motion because it looks like everybody’s doing it, but because we accept and we’re bearing witness about the knowledge we have and the testimony we have that President Hinckley is our prophet and our leader. We not only raise our hands in saying we sustain but that we follow his direction, that we listen, that we counsel, that we pray about it, that we’re mindful of what comes from the lips of the prophet.
idea
Question Everything
The following letter was sent from the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008:
Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families
In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2 008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters.
The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.
A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
California and Same-Sex Marriage - LDS Newsroom
are we to follow the direction of the first pres - or not? As for me, I will follow the prophet. Everyone has their free will, can do whatever they want. Some members watch R rated movies, they are not excommunicated for it, they know they are going against council from the prophet, but that is up to them. If you do not think the sacred institution of marriage is worth fighting for? I don't understand how any member does not understand the importance of marriage.
Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families
In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2 008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters.
The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.
A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
California and Same-Sex Marriage - LDS Newsroom
are we to follow the direction of the first pres - or not? As for me, I will follow the prophet. Everyone has their free will, can do whatever they want. Some members watch R rated movies, they are not excommunicated for it, they know they are going against council from the prophet, but that is up to them. If you do not think the sacred institution of marriage is worth fighting for? I don't understand how any member does not understand the importance of marriage.
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zomg
I aim to misbehave!
Does that mean I can/should watch raunchy PG-13 movies that just miss the R rating?
idea
Question Everything
the point was some members follow the prophet, others do not. Obviously some pg-13's are not "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
wickedness never was happiness....
(Book of Mormon | Alma41:10)
do you think that you will bring them happiness, will save them any misery, by allowing them to marry? Does calling it marriage somehow make their actions OK in the sight of God? Calling it marriage does not make it marriage, just like calling greenland green does not make it green, or calling China the "people's republic" does not make it a people's republic.
"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?
Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." - Abe L.
Calling it marriage does not make it marriage.
SSM will bring them misery, not joy, you know this.
Consider this Katz:
26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.
27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah29:26 - 27)
What happens when the majority start voting for SSM? I personally do not want to find out.
I find it strange that when the prophet asks us to support pro-life initiatives no one is offended. When the prophet suggests we vote down legalizing marijuana, no one gets offended. There have been plenty of political issues the church has taken a stance on (not supporting a person/party – things supporting morality). To me, if you feel uncomfortable voting against SSM as it is intruding into others lives, then I guess you would also vote pro-choice, and vote to legalize drugs, and vote to tax the church, and vote to…. and if we all voted to allow everyone to do anything they wanted, where would that leave society? If you want to save people from misery, vote to uphold God's morals.
“Law[4] is a system of rules, usually enforced through a set of institutions.[5] It shapes politics, economics and society in numerous ways and serves as a primary social mediator in relations between people.”
There is a reason that we have laws. The church encourages us to be politically active for a reason. What happens when the “primary social mediator in relations between people” embraces and celebrates immoral behaviour? The society crumbles and falls, everyone loses. So much is gained by upholding morals and supporting families. No one gains anything when immoral behavior is sancioned,
9 … when the wicked rule the people mourn.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section98:9)
When the laws of the land dictated that Daniel should not speak up and pray to his God, when the laws of the land forbid missionaries from sharing their message, when fredom of speech is attacked - the accounts in the scriptures are written for us to learn from – we know what happens when laws are unrighteous, immoral, when it becomes unlawful to speak up for moral behavior because moral behavior is not PC, is labeled a “hate crime”.
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(Old Testament | Isaiah5:20)
How many prophets/saints have been cast into prison for their words? Have been killed for their words? Do you think it impossible for this type of thing to happen again? When the liberty of the church, and freedom of speech are at stake – you would uphold those who consider speaking out against immoral behavior a hate crime worthy of incarceration?
You might say – that will never happen, things will never get that bad… no one would ever imprison anyone for speaking out against homosexuality... ok, there was just that one little case in Sweeden – he was only in prison for one month for preaching his beliefs, that happened to them, it will never happen to us. http://www.evangelicalnews.org/indiv_pr.php?pr_id=379
Sure sure, famous last words.
Why is it so easy for us to see these things happening to other people, in other nations, in other time periods, but for some reason no one can ever accept that it would ever happen to them? We are not so special that we will be preserved where others have not been....
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(New Testament | Mark13:19 - 20)
"those days" are "our days" Katz, and this prop 8 stuff, this is part of what is leading to the afflictions of the last days.
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idea, the church specifically said there would be no repercussions for those who did not support Prop 8. No church discipline. None. I can still go to the temple, hold a calling, go home teaching, take the sacrament, perform ordinances, give blessings, etc. etc. All the blessings of eternal life are still available regardless of my stance on Prop 8.
idea
Question Everything
There are repercussions for those who do not follow the prophet.
"We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).
Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14–16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church"
LDS.org - Topic Definition____
1:14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Ten Virgins
In this parable the virgins represent members of the Church, and the bridegroom represents Christ. The Lord explained to Joseph Smith that the wise virgins are those who “have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived” (D&C 45:57).
you are aware that 50% of those with callings and temple recommends etc. etc. can be likened unto the 50% in this parable who don't make it....
Last Sunday we went over section 76:
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the bFirstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the cmoon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the aspirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section76:71 - 80)
Those who are valiant follow the prophet.
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justamere10
Member
That's true, there is no force involved in being a member of the Lord's Church. Members are encouraged to think for themselves, to study and learn as much as they can, and to vote according to their conscience.
Members are also encouraged to sustain and support their leaders, and to take a stand on moral issues.
justamere10
Member
Free to choose yes, but we knew where the Senior Brethren stood on the matter.
zomg
I aim to misbehave!
I know, just messing with you. So maybe we should say instead of no rated R movies....no movies that are lacking in the "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy" department.
I've watched a few movies on netflix from the 70s and 80s that were rated PG...with nudity. Imagine my surprise and having to explain the nakedness to my wife.
:sorry1:
idea
Question Everything
please provide a link and quote.
the following is a great link:
The Truth About Same-Sex Marriage, Equal Rights - And Your Children!
some articles that caught my eye...
My Questions About Prop 8 In California
Yes on Prop 8 Challenges Superintendent of Public Education to Live Debate, will it actually happen? What are the issues with Prop 8 and public education?
Same-Sex Marriage is Now Legal in California -But it is NOT the Will of the People Who Voted!
The Three Pillars For A Successful Marriage - And Love, Is Not One Of Them!
The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
MARRIAGE IS SLOWLY DYING IN SCANDINAVIA. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. Sixty percent of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. This strongly coincides with the legalization of same-sex marriage..
Lets not beat around the bush. What eternal consequences are in store for me if I don't support the Brethern's position on Prop 8?
justamere10
Member
I don't know of any eternal consequences that would be in store for you for not sustaining and supporting church leaders. Personally I do that as a matter of choice, not out of fear of consequences.
And my choice is not out of fear of consequences either because I don't even think there are any.
idea
Question Everything
you sould like the majority of the Christians who believe that works are not necessary for salvation.
Then perhaps you can tell me what eternal consequences are in store for me.
zomg
I aim to misbehave!
I wonder...
Maybe we should be this vocal against members who don't read their scriptures every day. Have Family Home Evening each Monday. Morning and evening prayers, family prayers as well. Temple attendance at LEAST once a month. Family History work. Oh, and those who don't do home or visiting teaching.
Also, those who don't share the Gospel with their neighbors, pray for countries to open to missionary work, keep a journal, food storage, savings....
Imagine how awesome life would be.
I guess these topics aren't as serious as gay marriage. However, not doing the above IS going against the teachings of the First Presidency and the Twelve.
:slap:
Maybe we should be this vocal against members who don't read their scriptures every day. Have Family Home Evening each Monday. Morning and evening prayers, family prayers as well. Temple attendance at LEAST once a month. Family History work. Oh, and those who don't do home or visiting teaching.
Also, those who don't share the Gospel with their neighbors, pray for countries to open to missionary work, keep a journal, food storage, savings....
Imagine how awesome life would be.
I guess these topics aren't as serious as gay marriage. However, not doing the above IS going against the teachings of the First Presidency and the Twelve.
:slap:
Comicaze247
See the previous line
I can ask respectful questions, though, correct?