Krishna causing pain?

[Fireside_Hindu]

Namaste All,

I know almost nothing about Lord Krishna aside from a few stories so please correct any misinformation I may have. I was thinking today about the trysts and lila that Krishna had with the Gopis and Radhaji. I'm to understand that there are many interpretations but that one is that he did in fact have a sexual or romantic relationship with at least some of them? I also read that Radha was married to another man. It's hard for me not to imagine how this situation would play out in modern day, but maybe in Krishna's time romantic relationships were more open and there was less exclusivity. My question is (assuming everything I've written above has some truth to it) Wouldn't Krishna's relationship with the Gopis cause feelings of hurt and betrayal to other husbands? What are we to take away from Krishna's Lila about how we are to act in our relationships with others? Particularly our spouses?

Again, I expect much of it is symbolic, but it still must have been some reflection of social expectations at one time. Can any one offer their thoughts?

Many thanks

 

[Terese]

Namaste All,

I know almost nothing about Lord Krishna aside from a few stories so please correct any misinformation I may have. I was thinking today about the trysts and lila that Krishna had with the Gopis and Radhaji. I'm to understand that there are many interpretations but that one is that he did in fact have a sexual or romantic relationship with at least some of them? I also read that Radha was married to another man. It's hard for me not to imagine how this situation would play out in modern day, but maybe in Krishna's time romantic relationships were more open and there was less exclusivity. My question is (assuming everything I've written above has some truth to it) Wouldn't Krishna's relationship with the Gopis cause feelings of hurt and betrayal to other husbands? What are we to take away from Krishna's Lila about how we are to act in our relationships with others? Particularly our spouses?

Again, I expect much of it is symbolic, but it still must have been some reflection of social expectations at one time. Can any one offer their thoughts?

Many thanks

From what i know, Radha was Lord Krishna's favourite Gopi, but i'm not so sure about a romantic relationship. Sexual relationship? Out of the question. The blissful devotion and surrender to Govinda is a higher joy than anything in the material world. You may have read about the Gita-Govinda.

Actually, all of the gopis were married, not just Radha. King Parikchit asked a similar question as you to Sri Suka-deva, asking in Canto 10, chapter 33 of the Srimad Bhagavatam:

Sri Parikchit said: 'In order to establish the dharma and to subdue the defiant souls, He, the Supreme Lord, the Controller of the Universe descended with His plenary portion [Balarâma]. How could He, the original speaker, executor and protector of the codes of moral conduct, behave so to the contrary oh brahmin, by touching the wives of other men? What did He, being satisfied within, have in mind with this no doubt contemptible performance oh best of the vowed ones? Please dispel our doubt about this.'

Sri Suka said: 'The transgression of dharma and the boldness that we [sometimes] see of mighty authorities, does not mean they are at fault. They are like an all-consuming fire [that is not affected by what it consumes]. Someone not in control [of himself] must not even think of ever doing a thing like this. Being as foolish to act in such a way, means one's demise, one is not a Rudra who can drink the poison of the ocean. It are the words of the authorities that are true, their acts should only occasionally be taken as an example. What they do should intelligently be followed only in case they are in agreement with their words. Just as they who act egolessly do not benefit from the good acts they perform, they neither will suffer any disadvantage when they act contrary to the virtue. How can we in relation to the Controller(s) of those who are controlled - all the created beings, animals, human beings and denizens of heaven - speak in terms of right or wrong? The sages [His representatives] whose karmic bondage has all been washed away by serving the dust of the lotus feet, are satisfied by the power of yoga and act freely, they never get entangled because of Him. In what sense could one speak of a state of bondage with those who act according to the wishes of Him who assumed His wonderful bodies. He who within the gopîs and their husbands, indeed within all embodied beings lives as the Supreme Witness, assumes a form in this world in order to engage in His pastimes. In order to show His mercy to His devotees, He with assuming a humanlike body engages in [amorous] pastimes, hearing about which one becomes devoted to Him the cowherd men of Vraja who were bewildered by the power of His mâyâ, were not jealous of Krishna. They all thought that their wives had stayed at their side. Even though the gopîs did not want to, the sweethearts of the Supreme Lord, on Krishna's advise went home after that [endless] night of Brahmâ had passed.

Also, the gopis are not ordinary humans. In the Padma Purana, it says:

"It is understood that some of the gopis are personified Vedic literatures (s'ruti-cârî), while others are reborn sages (rishi-cârî), daughters of cowherds (gopa-kanyâs), or demigod maidens (deva-kanyâs). But by no means, my dear King, are any of them ordinary humans.' There is also mention of sâdhana-siddhas and nitya-siddhas: those perfect of spiritual discipline and those born that way."

If not satisfactory, perhaps @निताइ dasa can give a better answer

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

From what i know, Radha was Lord Krishna's favourite Gopi, but i'm not so sure about a romantic relationship. Sexual relationship? Out of the question. The blissful devotion and surrender to Govinda is a higher joy than anything in the material world. You may have read about the Gita-Govinda.

Actually, all of the gopis were married, not just Radha. King Parikchit asked a similar question as you to Sri Suka-deva, asking:

Sri Parikchit said: 'In order to establish the dharma and to subdue the defiant souls, He, the Supreme Lord, the Controller of the Universe descended with His plenary portion [Balarâma]. How could He, the original speaker, executor and protector of the codes of moral conduct, behave so to the contrary oh brahmin, by touching the wives of other men? What did He, being satisfied within, have in mind with this no doubt contemptible performance oh best of the vowed ones? Please dispel our doubt about this.'

Sri Suka said: 'The transgression of dharma and the boldness that we [sometimes] see of mighty authorities, does not mean they are at fault. They are like an all-consuming fire [that is not affected by what it consumes]. Someone not in control [of himself] must not even think of ever doing a thing like this. Being as foolish to act in such a way, means one's demise, one is not a Rudra who can drink the poison of the ocean. It are the words of the authorities that are true, their acts should only occasionally be taken as an example. What they do should intelligently be followed only in case they are in agreement with their words. Just as they who act egolessly do not benefit from the good acts they perform, they neither will suffer any disadvantage when they act contrary to the virtue. How can we in relation to the Controller(s) of those who are controlled - all the created beings, animals, human beings and denizens of heaven - speak in terms of right or wrong? The sages [His representatives] whose karmic bondage has all been washed away by serving the dust of the lotus feet, are satisfied by the power of yoga and act freely, they never get entangled because of Him. In what sense could one speak of a state of bondage with those who act according to the wishes of Him who assumed His wonderful bodies. He who within the gopîs and their husbands, indeed within all embodied beings lives as the Supreme Witness, assumes a form in this world in order to engage in His pastimes. In order to show His mercy to His devotees, He with assuming a humanlike body engages in [amorous] pastimes, hearing about which one becomes devoted to Him the cowherd men of Vraja who were bewildered by the power of His mâyâ, were not jealous of Krishna. They all thought that their wives had stayed at their side. Even though the gopîs did not want to, the sweethearts of the Supreme Lord, on Krishna's advise went home after that [endless] night of Brahmâ had passed.

If not satisfactory, perhaps @निताइ dasa can give a better answer

Thank you for that lengthy reply. I think it answers how *Krishna* is unaffected by his behavior but not the effect his actions had on others. According to this telling, the husbands of the Gopis were so distracted by Lord Krishna's Maya that they thought their wives were always by their side, but how does this translate to today, in ordinary circumstances? A woman infatuated with another man probably doesn't have the benefit of being able to fool her husband with maya (or the maya of the object of her affection).

The explanation of "He was unattached to his actions so it's all good" doesn't feel quite right. All the husbands would have to be unattached as well. Are the tales of his romantic lila a description of what we should aspire to so we can feel bliss? As in, if we were *all* unattached we could feel romance or devotion to anyone without causing pain?

Thank you for your patience with this. It's very interesting and I'm eager to understand. =)

 

[Terese]

Thank you for that lengthy reply. I think it answers how *Krishna* is unaffected by his behavior but not the effect his actions had on others. According to this telling, the husbands of the Gopis were so distracted by Lord Krishna's Maya that they thought their wives were always by their side, but how does this translate to today, in ordinary circumstances? A woman infatuated with another man probably doesn't have the benefit of being able to fool her husband with maya (or the maya of the object of her affection).

The explanation of "He was unattached to his actions so it's all good" doesn't feel quite right. All the husbands would have to be unattached as well. Are the tales of his romantic lila a description of what we should aspire to so we can feel bliss? As in, if we were *all* unattached we could feel romance or devotion to anyone without causing pain?

Thank you for your patience with this. It's very interesting and I'm eager to understand. =)

What us ordinary humans do is incomparable to what the Supreme Lord can do. Don't think that Lord Krishna fooled the husbands of the gopis because He was infatuated with the gopis, He was not. Lord Krishna performed his lilas with the gopis out of love of His devotees, His transcendental pastimes cannot be compared to adultery. Lord Krishna says in Canto 10, chapter 29:

"For women it indeed is the highest dharma to be diligently of service to her husband, to be simple and honest towards the relatives and to take good care of her family. Unless he fell down [from his belief or being unfaithful] a husband, even being bad-tempered, unfortunate, old, decrepit, sickly and poor, must not be rejected by women who want to go to heaven. For a well-educated woman to go astray dishonorably in adultery, is in all cases a contemptible weakness that creates fear and harms the reputation. By listening, being in My presence [with the deity and the devotees], by meditation and by narrating [proclaiming and publishing], one is of love for Me, not so much with physical proximity."

You are saying that we should aspire to attempt this transcendental lila of His. This is impossible. We cannot reproduce his lilas, especially his Rasa Lila. These are confidential, they cannot be performed by ordinary persons. It is even ill of someone to do so. And even if one tried, it would not produce an iota of spiritual bliss that when Lord Krishna performed it.

The unattachment Lord Krishna feels can only be attained by nitya suris and mukhtas, those who have attained his abode.

 

[DeviChaaya]

This is a bit unorthodox but the gopas, the gopis husbands, likely experienced their own rasa lila with Krishna. It does not get mention, probably, because it was seen simply as normal for boys/young men/men in general to be close. These men are not hurt because how can they begrudge their partner the same bliss of close contact with their Best Friend?

Among the men and women of Vrinadavan everyone got to experience Krishna in a unique and personal manner, whether they wanted to serve as the servant, the best friend, the parent and ultimately as their lover.

Krishna is endlessly merciful and would have brought the whole village into his most intimate acquaintance. Everyone there was liberated by bing there in His presence.

 

[Terese]

This is a bit unorthodox but the gopas, the gopis husbands, likely experienced their own rasa lila with Krishna. It does not get mention, probably, because it was seen simply as normal for boys/young men/men in general to be close. These men are not hurt because how can they begrudge their partner the same bliss of close contact with their Best Friend?

Among the men and women of Vrinadavan everyone got to experience Krishna in a unique and personal manner, whether they wanted to serve as the servant, the best friend, the parent and ultimately as their lover.

Krishna is endlessly merciful and would have brought the whole village into his most intimate acquaintance. Everyone there was liberated by bing there in His presence.

Some of what you say may not be unorthodox. Lord Krishna was present in Vrindavan, and so brought Sri Vaikuntham to Him and all the residents of Vrindavan, so you are right in saying that Krishna is endlessly merciful and brought the whole village into his most intimate acquaintance, and liberated by being in His presence. This is what Lord Rama did in Ayodhya

Being close with Lord Krishna does not mean you experienced the rasa lila, you must understand that when Lord Krishna performed it with the gopis, to their perspectives it was for one night of Brahma, as i have quoted in my previous post. This means Lord Krishna and the gopis danced for 4.3 billion years, although for the rest of the world it was just another ordinary night at home The reason i mention this is because i am not sure if you mean that the gopas and the gopis' husbands experienced the rasa lila with Lord Krishna, or that you are talking about a sort of different rasa lila, which is a close relationship to Lord Krishna?

Regardless, everyone in Vrindavan most definitely experienced Krishna in unique and personal ways. Nitai Dasa knows more

 

[Shantanu]

Namaste All,

I know almost nothing about Lord Krishna aside from a few stories so please correct any misinformation I may have. I was thinking today about the trysts and lila that Krishna had with the Gopis and Radhaji. I'm to understand that there are many interpretations but that one is that he did in fact have a sexual or romantic relationship with at least some of them? I also read that Radha was married to another man. It's hard for me not to imagine how this situation would play out in modern day, but maybe in Krishna's time romantic relationships were more open and there was less exclusivity. My question is (assuming everything I've written above has some truth to it) Wouldn't Krishna's relationship with the Gopis cause feelings of hurt and betrayal to other husbands? What are we to take away from Krishna's Lila about how we are to act in our relationships with others? Particularly our spouses?

Again, I expect much of it is symbolic, but it still must have been some reflection of social expectations at one time. Can any one offer their thoughts?

Many thanks

This is a very interesting topic to consider.

I will start by giving the story of my elder sister in India. She has for decades been enamoured with Krishna in total devotion whilst being happily married at the same time to a husband who understands this love as the acceptable love of a woman for God as a male Being. They have brought up three children and it has never been a question in her husbands mind to be angry or jealous about my sister's devotion to Krishna for he too accepts Krishna as God. This means that spouses are free to offer themselves to God in whatever way they consider appropriate. If a person is known to be an incarnation of Sri Krishna on Earth living as God then women devoted to God would want to even have sexual relations with that person and that would be quite acceptable.

As far as the mythology of Krishna and the gopis is concerned we do not know for certain that Krishna had sexual relations with the gopis or even romantic relations as between a man and a woman. Even if it was true that there were sexual or romantic relations it was between a gopi and a person known to be God on Earth so it was quite acceptable that husbands should agree to the idea of the wife surrendering to God in every sense of the word. It does not mean that we married humans in our lives should engage in sexual or romantic relations with other human beings to put our marriages at risk. God was however a different matter, and the husbands of gopis accepted that noone should come between a person and God. This was as applicable for society at the time of Krishna as it is now.

That is how the morality of the mythology of Krishna and the gopis should be read.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is the genesis of many rogue babas in India. For a woman, in Indian society, the husband is 'Pati Parameshwara'. She should not even look at any other male. The same stands true for a married man. They are bound by their 'dharma' and 'vows'.

"Now let us make a vow together. We shall share love, share the same food, share our strengths, share the same tastes. We shall be of one mind, we shall observe the vows together. I shall be the SamaVeda, you the RigVeda, I shall be the Upper World, you the Earth; I shall be the Sukhilam, you the Holder – together we shall live and beget children, and other riches; come thou, O beautiful girl!"

Step 7 Groom's vow: O friends!, allow us to cover the seventh step together, this promise, our Saptapad-friendship. Please be my constant wife.
Step 7 Bride's vow: Yes, today, I gained you, I secured the highest kind of friendship with you. I will remember the vows we just took and adore you forever sincerely with all my heart.

"We have taken the Seven Steps. You have become mine forever. Yes, we have become partners. I have become yours. Hereafter, I cannot live without you. Do not live without me. Let us share the joys. We are word and meaning, united. You are thought and I am sound. May the night be honey-sweet for us. May the morning be honey-sweet for us. May the earth be honey-sweet for us. May the heavens be honey-sweet for us. May the plants be honey-sweet for us. May the sun be all honey for us. May the cows yield us honey-sweet milk. As the heavens are stable, as the earth is stable, as the mountains are stable, as the whole universe is stable, so may our union be permanently settled."
Hindu wedding - Wikipedia

 

[Jainarayan]

The love the gopis, their husbands and Krishna's friends experienced is prema. It's possible the reason the gopis seemed to be in two places at once, with their husbands and with Krishna, is because they were spiritually drawn to him. There is an episode in Canto X (and I really must start reading it again... and finish it) where Krishna takes his friends, the cowherd boys, on an adventure. In their place at home and work he left their doppelgängers, if you will. The doppelgängers did all the regular chores and activities at home, and no one was the wiser. The gopis were physically at home and spiritually with him, or the other way around, as in the story of the cowherd boys. There is one other very plausible and even probable and highly likely explanation... I made this all up as I went along.