Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

[FearGod]

Good question. I have opinions, but that is a more details question. Likely @outhouse has a much better informed explanation of Constantine's personal life.

One thing Muhammad apparently learned from the Christians is how much better it is to say that you are improving an old religion. Rather than say that you are inventing a new one, even when you are.
Tom

Why a powerful rich warlord was in need for the old religion, i think the old religion has to be in need for the powerful warlord.

 

[columbus]

Why a powerful rich warlord was in need for the old religion, i think the old religion has to be in need for the powerful warlord.

Because by forming a new religion with you at the center you become even more powerful and by consolidation your power becomes more secure.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

Because by forming a new religion with you at the center you become even more powerful and by consolidation your power becomes more secure.
Tom

How become more powerful, all were against him including the disbelievers, the atheists.

 

[Unification]

One has to have faith Muhammed even existed as a literal historical figure. Dating of his bones and evidence it's him. Until then, it remains fantasy.

 

[columbus]

How become more powerful, all were against him including the disbelievers, the atheists.

Obviously not all were against him. He had a following of warriors. By inventing a religion with him at the center he could consolidate and increase his already powerful position.
So he drew upon the many stories he learned as a young man. He travelled widely in a region with lots of Jews and Christians and picked up many garbled versions of their beliefs. He created a new religion out of those, plus some local beliefs and some pagan notions.
Including the notion that Jesus escaped the crucifixion.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

Obviously not all were against him. He had a following of warriors. By inventing a religion with him at the center he could consolidate and increase his already powerful position.
So he drew upon the many stories he learned as a young man. He travelled widely in a region with lots of Jews and Christians and picked up many garbled versions of their beliefs. He created a new religion out of those, plus some local beliefs and some pagan notions.
Including the notion that Jesus escaped the crucifixion.
Tom

Yes all were against him, Jews, Christians and atheists.

 

[SuperScript22]

One has to have faith Muhammed even existed as a literal historical figure. Dating of his bones and evidence it's him. Until then, it remains fantasy.

As as fan of ancient DNA and human genetics in general, I support this notion. Apparently his grave is somewhere in Arabia, I would love to see what kind of genes he carried.

 

[FearGod]

As as fan of ancient DNA and human genetics in general, I support this notion. Apparently his grave is somewhere in Arabia, I would love to see what kind of genes he carried.

Exactly what i was thinking minutes ago.

 

[SuperScript22]

Exactly what i was thinking minutes ago.

I also say that because this could put the whole descendant from certain tribe none-sense to bed rest.

 

[columbus]

Yes all were against him, Jews, Christians and atheists.

Well, of course the people he was attacking were against him. He was a warlord. That makes you unpopular with most of the rest of the people. But not everyone was against him. He had a devoted following of violent warriors. So what you're saying is flat out wrong.
And the reason most of those people didn't like his new religion is because they knew he was making it up. They were there and they knew what he was doing, even if you 1400 years later don't.
Tom

 

[columbus]

One has to have faith Muhammed even existed as a literal historical figure. Dating of his bones and evidence it's him. Until then, it remains fantasy.

What doubt can there be?
He's sort of like Alexander the great. The history of the region is such that even if he had been forgotten centuries ago historians would have to posit his existence to explain that which we know happened.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

Well, of course the people he was attacking were against him. He was a warlord. That makes you unpopular with most of the rest of the people. But not everyone was against him. He had a devoted following of violent warriors. So what you're saying is flat out wrong.
And the reason most of those people didn't like his new religion is because they knew he was making it up. They were there and they knew what he was doing, even if you 1400 years later don't.
Tom

It seems you don't know the story of prophet Mohammed.

 

[columbus]

It seems you don't know the story of prophet Mohammed.

Yes, I am somewhat familiar.
What I don't do is put as much faith in one tiny group of humans from many centuries ago as you do.
I look at all the available information. Because I want to know what is true, not what some religious authorities want me to believe.
Tom

 

[SuperScript22]

What doubt can there be?
He's sort of like Alexander the great. The history of the region is such that even if he had been forgotten centuries ago historians would have to posit his existence to explain that which we know happened.
Tom

I think it's still important to DNA test him to identify the lineage. Muslims claim he comes from the lineage of Abraham which is shared ancestry with Jews. Now if you ask me I'll tell you that there's no evidence of Abraham, Moses, Adam, etc, so talking about them is as good as talking about Santa Claus and Leprechauns. But for the sake of argument let's assume that he shares a lineage with most Gulf Arabs today and Jews who claim to be Cohen Jews, that would mean he would have to carry a Y-DNA mutation of J-M267. I'm actually interested in this because modern Quraish and Banu Hashim Arabs have shown to have diverse Y-DNA which indicates multiple paternal lineages even though the majority do carry J-M267 (The same goes for Cohen Jews). To top it off, a number of modern Arabs who claimed to be from "Ahl Al-Bait" actually turned out to be carrying Y-DNA R-L657, which is most commonly found in South Asia.

 

[columbus]

I think it's still important to DNA test him to identify the lineage. Muslims claim he comes from the lineage of Abraham which is shared ancestry with Jews.

Oh, OK. I thought you were questioning his historical existence. Some people do.
I tend to assume that there is a kernel of truth at the heart of all these ancient legends. Muhammad seems much more realistic than most.
Tom

 

[SuperScript22]

Oh, OK. I thought you were questioning his historical existence. Some people do.
I tend to assume that there is a kernel of truth at the heart of all these ancient legends. Muhammad seems much more realistic than most.
Tom

I think the era Muhammad lived in was recent enough for us to accept him as a historical figure (Though outside of Islam I don't think there's proof). What I do question is the legitimacy of his religion or any religion for that matter. To me Islam is like any religion out there, which is simply made up by humans and is no different than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

 

[Unification]

What doubt can there be?
He's sort of like Alexander the great. The history of the region is such that even if he had been forgotten centuries ago historians would have to posit his existence to explain that which we know happened.
Tom

People and cultures are competitive, and that region has less scrutiny due to certain laws that prevent a closer examination. "Jesus" and "Christianity" were pretty hot off of the press. That region could have desired their own identity and I'm not naive enough to believe that just because a biography exists, it automatically assumes the human existed. Especially thousands of years ago and with outward religion. I'd still have to have faith Muhammed existed, or at least give the benefit of the doubt that he did exist. And if he did exist, that the biography(s) was/were accurate. There are some Muslim "scholars" who believe it's a sham, and that's pretty courageous. Just as Israeli archeologists.

 

[columbus]

And if he did exist, that the biography(s) was/were accurate.

Ah, those are two very different things aren't they?

Existing and matching the legends...
Who knows?

I expect Muhammad really did resemble them more closely than the more ancient prophets like Jesus or Moses. But I am also sure that the legends were manipulated to suit his followers desire for a superhuman. They wanted a demi-god, so they made Muhammad into one.
Tom

 

[paarsurrey]

The document contains these verses. Ordering and wording does not differ significantly in between the document and the Quran we have today as far as I am aware.
verses 23–31 of Surah 18 Al-kahf
And do not say, regarding anything, 'I am going to do that tomorrow,' (23)but only, 'If God will'; and mention thy Lord, when thou forgettest, and say, 'It may be that my Lord will guide me unto something nearer to rectitude than this.') (24)And they tarried in the Cave three hundred years, and to that they added nine more. (25)Say: 'God knows very well how long they tarried. To Him belongs the Unseen in the heavens and in the earth. How well He sees! How well He hears! They have no protector, apart from Him, and He associates in His government no one.' (26)Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words. Apart from Him, thou wilt find no refuge. (27) And do not say, regarding anything, 'I am going to do that tomorrow,' (23)but only, 'If God will'; and mention thy Lord, when thou forgettest, and say, 'It may be that my Lord will guide me unto something nearer to rectitude than this.') (24)And they tarried in the Cave three hundred years, and to that they added nine more. (25)Say: 'God knows very well how long they tarried. To Him belongs the Unseen in the heavens and in the earth. How well He sees! How well He hears! They have no protector, apart from Him, and He associates in His government no one.' (26)Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words. Apart from Him, thou wilt find no refuge. (27)
verses 91–98 of Surah 19 Maryam
that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; (91)and it behoves not the All-merciful to take a son. (92)None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-merciful as a servant;(93)He has indeed counted them, and He has numbered them exactly. (94)Every one of them shall come to Him upon the Day of Resurrection, all alone.(95)Surely those who believe and do deeds of righteousness -- unto them the All-merciful shall assign love. (96)Now We have made it easy by thy tongue that thou mayest bear good tidings thereby to the godfearing, and warn a people stubborn. (97)And how many a generation We destroyed before them! Dost thou perceive so much as one of them, or hear of them a whisper? (98)
first 12 verses of Surah 20 Ta-Ha
Ta Ha (1)We have not sent down the Koran upon thee for thee to be unprosperous, (2)but only as a reminder to him who tears, (3)a revelation from Him who created the earth and the high heavens; (4)the All-compassionate sat Himself upon the Throne; to Him belongs (5)all that is in the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and all that is underneath the soil. (6)Be thou loud in thy speech, yet surely He knows the secret and that yet more hidden. (7)God -- there is no god but He. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. (8)Hast thou received the story of Moses? (9)When he saw a fire, and said to his family, 'Tarry you here; I observe a fire. Perhaps I shall bring you a brand from it, or I shall find at the fire guidance.' (10)When he came to it, a voice cried, 'Moses, (11)I am thy Lord; put off thy shoes; thou art in the holy valley, Towa. (12)
(Arberry Translation)

OK
Thanks and regards

 

[outhouse]

It seems you don't know the story of prophet Mohammed.

The problem is you know faith, not history.

The story lies in and out of known history.