Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

[Shad]

That is why the first sentence of the OP addressed facts will not change faith. And were only talking about possible evidence here in context.

Agreed. The Quran is going through the same phase Biblical scholarship has. Remove the literalism and inerrancy of religion from the text in order to place it in the context of history. This places the text firmly in the hands of academics rather than the theologians that teach what they preach.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Nothing definitive in any of this.
So no conclusions only speculation is involved.

 

[outhouse]

Nothing definitive in any of this.
So no conclusions only speculation is involved.

It Is possible evidence that shines a light on what we already know.

It is the oldest fragments of the koran that exist, so it has importance there as well.

 

[outhouse]

Which means nothing. Uthman did not write the first quran. He compiled the "official quran" and destroyed other copies. Which means that there were other copies that predate the one he had completed. Islamic history already states there were earlier copies

It can mean something though. There were different competing compilations.

If this quran is so early then its going to be interesting to see if there are any differences.

Yes.

But since we already know these traditions existed before Muhammad proving what we know means little, other then to fundamentalist who would refuse it if it was fact anyway.


So yes interesting is where it will stay regardless

 

[outhouse]

The script used was one that existed during the emergence of Islam and the first used for recording the early Qurans and codification

It has the possibility of existing before Muhammad. Not up for debate it is a factual possibility

 

[outhouse]

I am only pointing out that people are far to focused on the possibility the text predates the Muhammad and seems to be excluding the possibility that the text does not.

Brother, no one is leaning on the assumption it is only earlier.

I should have put a question mark on my OP title to make that clear.

 

[Shad]

It has the possibility of existing before Muhammad. Not up for debate it is a factual possibility

It has a high probability.

Brother, no one is leaning on the assumption it is only earlier.

I should have put a question mark on my OP title to make that clear.

I am just pointing out how it will become sensationalized since it is about a religion.

 

[outhouse]

I am just pointing out how it will become sensationalized since it is about a religion.

Definitely.

People place faith is so many things against reality in many areas of creating theology, negative or positive attention sells.

 

[jeager106]

None of this will cause even the most liberal Muslim
to abandon Islam for any reason.
Islam is too deeply ingrained into the culture to be refuted by
mere scientific evidence.

 

[outhouse]

None of this will cause even the most liberal Muslim
to abandon Islam for any reason.
Islam is too deeply ingrained into the culture to be refuted by
mere scientific evidence.

True.

if we said 1 + 1 = 2 if their book said 47 we could never get them to accept 2 no matter how hard we tried. Its the fanaticism to throw away facts and what is known without question that bothers me. I feel fanaticism and fundamentalism breed hatred of those with different beliefs. We already had one muslim threatening eternal damnation just because we were reporting the current state of academia on the topic

 

[paarsurrey]

Here are the scans of the ancient documents

http://www.muslimworldjournal.com/2015/07/1400-year-old-quran-scans-released/
http://www.muslimworldjournal.com/2015/07/1400-year-old-quran-scans-released/

Thanks and regards.

 

[paarsurrey]

Here are the scans of the ancient documents

http://www.muslimworldjournal.com/2015/07/1400-year-old-quran-scans-released/
http://www.muslimworldjournal.com/2015/07/1400-year-old-quran-scans-released/

Can you provide the corresponding text chapter/verse from the Quran in use? Please
Thanks and regards

 

[jeager106]

On the other hand..................................................
Many people, scientists included, have refuted belief in a Power
Greater Than Man. That's P.G.T.M. or God for short.
Still churches are attended and people pray to one "god" or another,
including me.
And the facts are that "we" don't really know who wrote the books
of our Christian Bible.
Still we believe.
I think there is something innate in the nature of mankind to believe
in something greater than we are.
I believe there is, "God" works for me just fine.

 

[outhouse]

None of this will cause even the most liberal Muslim
to abandon Islam for any reason.

Same goes for your faith as well. As you eluded to.

 

[FearGod]

Then you accept that there is no logical arguments for God and it is an unjustified belief. Thus to believe in the Quran is unjustified. I doubt that you agree thus you use the word logical as an appeal rather than a method.

The same thing applies on you, what are you debating if there is no logical arguments on faith ?!

Your failure in logic is amusing. You assumed I was talking about a single piece of text rather than the complete Quran. You do realize that it is fallacious thinking to jump to this conclusion, right? So much you using logic...

Many verses were revealed according to the events occurred in the era of Mohammed, so thinking that the quran were recorded before
the days of Mohammed is an irrational thoughts.

 

[FearGod]

True.

if we said 1 + 1 = 2 if their book said 47 we could never get them to accept 2 no matter how hard we tried. Its the fanaticism to throw away facts and what is known without question that bothers me. I feel fanaticism and fundamentalism breed hatred of those with different beliefs. We already had one muslim threatening eternal damnation just because we were reporting the current state of academia on the topic

That is absolutely not the case.

Prove that God doesn't exist and i'm all ears.

 

[Shad]

The same thing applies on you, what are you debating if there is no logical arguments on faith ?!

I am not debating God, we are talking about a text.

Many verses were revealed according to the events occurred in the era of Mohammed, so thinking that the quran were recorded before
the days of Mohammed is an irrational thoughts.

What is irrational is your inability to understand that a text need no be copied whole cloth. You absolutism of your religion is tripping you up. More so the OP text in question is not a complete Quran.

 

[Shad]

That is absolutely not the case.

Prove that God doesn't exist and i'm all ears.

You believe in God, it is your burden to prove. Outhouse just rejects Islams claims. He is talking about is solely through a historic scope which does not include God as relevent

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What do you suppose Isis would do with such fragments if they fell into supporters hands.

 

[outhouse]

Prove that God doesn't exist and i'm all ears.

No god has ever been proven to exist scientifically. The burden of proof lies on those that make the claim he exist.

This is not part of the OP, lease start a new thread.