Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls

[leibowde84]

Devils advocate doesn't work. You don't know the positions well enough, IN REALITY, to be affectating them in debate.


Like, 'average xianity'. I have no idea, really, in reality, what this is. No matter what my beliefs are, this is not a part of my knowledge. No amount of discussion on RF is going to change this. So I don't affect the position; simple.

Why wouldn't someone playing the devil's advocate not "know the positions well enough, in reality, to be affectating them in debate"? That seems like a huge assumption.

 

[Desert Snake]

Devils advocate doesn't work. You don't know the positions well enough, IN REALITY, to be affectating them in debate.


Like, 'average xianity'. I have no idea, really, in reality, what this is. No matter what my beliefs are, this is not a part of my knowledge. No amount of discussion on RF is going to change this. So I don't affect the position; simple.

Strawmaen arguments occur because the position is not nderstood in the first place. half the time, the poster does not even realize that that they are strwamnning an argument.

 

[leibowde84]

I'm not going to spend any more energy or time on this. It's not that important. adios.

I'll take it that you can't substantiate those claims with examples.

 

[Desert Snake]

Why wouldn't someone playing the devil's advocate not "know the positions well enough, in reality, to be affectating them in debate"? That seems like a huge assumption.

It's not an assumption, when they are affectating a position that I am actually familiar with. that is obvious.

 

[Iti oj]

no....more like peaceful....

Not if words are judged. Is heaven filled with silver tounged politicians. What matters is actions.

 

[leibowde84]

and we use a convention here.....state your belief as belief.

by argument....you ARE seeking something better.

I agree. Argument is a tool used in the "seeking of something better". And, belief should be stated as belief, nothing more. But, how is that relevant? I am speaking to arguments, not dishonest professions of beliefs.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I completely agree with you. An RF member here insulted me by judging and interpreting how I view my current belief and my relationships with my former. (The member was going off my post and titles) This is just a forum and we shouldnt have to stressed out by being told what we believe or should believe or not believe even.

I guess all we can do is abruptly end the conversation. I dont know if some remember this is a debate, -discuss and compare- forum.

Hope things work out somehow.

I've had an ongoing battle with another member of RF that claims to know more about my beliefs than I do merely from my comments on a single religious debate forum. To me, this is the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard. I pride myself on being able to look at things from different points of view, and often I am educated on this site by other members who enlighten me to various assumptions I might overlook. Often, I enjoy playing the "Devil's Advocate", simply because it forces me to look at things from different angles. Imho, avoiding this is detrimental to one's own intellectual development. Because of this, it seems ridiculous to even consider the possibility that you could know my personal beliefs merely from the comments I've made on this site.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Thief]

I agree. Argument is a tool used in the "seeking of something better". And, belief should be stated as belief, nothing more. But, how is that relevant? I am speaking to arguments, not dishonest professions of beliefs.

Well...if you have already decided the 'belief' is dishonest......

Then your postwork is nothing but temptation.

You ARE the devil's advocate.

 

[leibowde84]

It's not an assumption, when they are affectating a position that I am actually familiar with. that is obvious.

So, when a person uses language that is artificial and designed to impress about a position that you are familiar with, it is obvious to you. I agree, but I fail to see how this is relevant. The assumption is that you think those who play the devil's advocate are doing so with ill-intent. Why would you assume this?

 

[leibowde84]

I completely agree with you. An RF member here insulted me by judging and interpreting how I view my current belief and my relationships with my former. (The member was going off my post and titles) This is just a forum and we shouldnt have to stressed out by being told what we believe or should believe or not believe even.

I guess all we can do is abruptly end the conversation. I dont know if some remember this is a debate, -discuss and compare- forum.

Hope things work out somehow.

You are a shining star!! Well-put. I agree completely. A debate forum is where arguments or positions are debated. It is not necessarily where people pit THEIR beliefs against the beliefs of OTHERS. It should always be, THIS idea is better substantiated than THAT one. It should never be, MY beliefs are better substantiated than YOUR beliefs, as that is just disrespectful and condescending.

 

[Thief]

I completely agree with you. An RF member here insulted me by judging and interpreting how I view my current belief and my relationships with my former. (The member was going off my post and titles) This is just a forum and we shouldnt have to stressed out by being told what we believe or should believe or not believe even.

I guess all we can do is abruptly end the conversation. I dont know if some remember this is a debate, -discuss and compare- forum.

Hope things work out somehow.

not so fast.

Another member has just posted the stress related difficulty he feels participating in these debates!

We cannot say ....no one should be stressed.
When professing what you believe and another retorts as if to say......dishonest!.....

and of course there are rules......

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't think my actual personal beliefs are relevant. Only the arguments themselves are, whether they are actually believed or not.

Forgive this question. When learning and challenging others beliefs in a healthg way wouldnt it make sense to share about your beliefs as well? People critize all the time. Id find it makes sense that both share your beliefs when the conversation warents differing stances on a belief for mutual understanding (If people want it)

 

[leibowde84]

Well...if you have already decided the 'belief' is dishonest......

Then your postwork is nothing but temptation.

You ARE the devil's advocate.

What belief? If you say that you believe something that you don't, that is dishonest and wrong. I have never said otherwise. But, arguing for a specific position is not professing any belief in the validity of said argument. It is merely presenting an argument. If you assume that when someone presents an argument, that they actually believe in that argument, you have a very misguided notion of what debate is. Think about debate clubs in schools. Teams are assigned a position, and they must argue for it. No one would make the absurd assumption that they actually hold to those beliefs. Taking on issues from an unfamiliar angle allows one to understand an issue better.

 

[leibowde84]

Forgive this question. When learning and challenging others beliefs in a healthg way wouldnt it make sense to share about your beliefs as well? People critize all the time. Id find it makes sense that both share your beliefs when the conversation warents differing stances on a belief for mutual understanding (If people want it)

I agree. I think that is often a good practice. My point is simply that the assumption that anyone making an argument must hold a belief that the argument is absolutely correct is flawed and unreasonable.

 

[leibowde84]

Forgive this question. When learning and challenging others beliefs in a healthg way wouldnt it make sense to share about your beliefs as well? People critize all the time. Id find it makes sense that both share your beliefs when the conversation warents differing stances on a belief for mutual understanding (If people want it)

There is a monumental difference between professing faith in something and presenting a reasoned argument for something.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

not so fast.

Another member has just posted the stress related difficulty he feels participating in these debates!

We cannot say ....no one should be stressed.
When professing what you believe and another retorts as if to say......dishonest!.....

and of course there are rules......

That means some people "should be" stressed with being insulted for who they are (their beliefs)?

 

[leibowde84]

Well...if you have already decided the 'belief' is dishonest......

Then your postwork is nothing but temptation.

You ARE the devil's advocate.

An argument is not a profession of faith. That is the point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is a monumental difference between professing faith in something and presenting a reasoned argument for something.

A lot of conversations usually dont require that you share your beliefs but more debating with reasonable arguments you support but may not believe in (since thats irrevelant to the debate at hand)?

 

[Thief]

An argument is not a profession of faith. That is the point.

There will never be an equation, a photo, a fingerprint or repeatable experiment.
No proof will be offered.

only the argument.

If the argument fails to pass your sensibility....then you will call it dishonest.

I don't think that is honest.
You claim devil's advocate.....
do you also claim the weigh scale and balance?

 

[Willamena]

What do you mean by this? It's not always about you?

"It's not always about you," is what people say to remind others that they are taking something personally or making it about themselves when that wasn't the intent.

Ad hominem is when the debate opponent is directing their arguments to be about you; hence the humour in reminding yourself that their ad hominem is "not about you."