Kenostic Theology

[Coleio]

Is this not a problem for Christians?
I can't be bothered to explain it and type it myself here, go to wikipedia and search for it.

 

[Quiddity]

Not for this Christian. Mind explaining why you think it would?

 

[Coleio]

The Wikipedia article says it all really. I'm not sure what type of Christian or Theist you are and it may be that which decides why it's no problem for you.
But to assume human form, requires an abstinence if you will from divine attributes.
Jesus obviously being of divine attribute immediately after the ascension and human simultaneously is incompatible.
Aside from the fact that from what I'm led to believe, Jesus was divine whilst on earth anyway, through my understanding a divine being cannot transcend to an earthly realm of time, space, materials, and finite variables.

 

[Quiddity]

Kenosis isn't abstinence of Godly attributes but rather 'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God. Since Christians believe in the Trinity, it would basically mean God respected the laws he put into place (aging, pain, etc.) but did not empty out his divine attributes.

 

[Coleio]

It seems like a bit of a cop-out and much to subjective an assumption to be entirely valid.
If you post evidence of him, changing his laws (which again, God supposed to be perfection has no reason to change the laws he created and possibly no power to change the laws he created as that would imply a contradiction regarding his perfection) then I'll glady listen.
And I'm pretty sure its impossible to respect the laws God put in place without emptying divine attributes. This leaves a pretty big problem really.

 

[Quiddity]

It seems like a bit of a cop-out and much to subjective an assumption to be entirely valid.
If you post evidence of him, changing his laws (which again, God supposed to be perfection has no reason to change the laws he created and possibly no power to change the laws he created as that would imply a contradiction regarding his perfection) then I'll glady listen.
And I'm pretty sure its impossible to respect the laws God put in place without emptying divine attributes. This leaves a pretty big problem really.

What's so impossible about God not aging (the laws that revolve around time)? Or God floating (the law of gravity)?

I'm not following you.

 

[Coleio]

God isn't subject to those laws is the problem.
If he was he would have emptied himself of divine attributes. The two are incompatible.
That is the whole problem of Kenosis.

 

[Quiddity]

God isn't subject to those laws is the problem.
If he was he would have emptied himself of divine attributes. The two are incompatible.
That is the whole problem of Kenosis.

We believe He was subject to those laws. But assuming I follow your logic and I say God isn't subject to those laws, why would He have to empty himelf of his divine attributes? Especially since that isn't what Kenosis is saying. I quoted directly from Wiki above.

 

[Coleio]

We believe He was subject to those laws. But assuming I follow your logic and I say God isn't subject to those laws, why would He have to empty himelf of his divine attributes? Especially since that isn't what Kenosis is saying. I quoted directly from Wiki above.

It is. And to quote Deathspell Omega:
"Was there not an inconceivable loss of knowledge at Bethlehem?
Christ's abasement, His subjecting Himself to the laws of human birth
And growth and to the lowliness of fallen human nature...
Did the Son remain the transcendent Logos?
Is there not a radical and fatal discontinuity between the consciousness
Of the transcendent Logos and the secular Jesus?"

To not believe in those laws is typical of what Christians do a lot, changing things to suit them so it appears correct, such as taking the bible literally in parts and allegorically in others when you feel it doesn't coincide with 'good faith'.

According to Classical Theism, this includes Anselm, Aquinas etc.

God transcends time and space etc. He cannot appear in human form and also with divine attributes. The two are incompatible (read the simple and easy to understand wikipedia article again if you don't believe me).
To change Gods ancient laws just to get free of the problem of Kenosis really just lowers my opinion once more of Theist and particulary Christian faith.

 

[Quiddity]

No Christian takes the Bible hyper-literally or hyper-allegorical......that's just bunk.

If we can't even agree as to what Kenosis even means, then we aren't going to get very far. I used the link you gave me, what else you want me to do?

Here, let me quote it again:
'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God...<---this is a direct quote from the link you provided.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm not entirely sure what you are saying.

Is this one of those arguments that say God can't create a stone large enough he can't lift?

 

[Coleio]

No Christian takes the Bible hyper-literally or hyper-allegorical......that's just bunk.

If we can't even agree as to what Kenosis even means, then we aren't going to get very far. I used the link you gave me, what else you want me to do?

Here, let me quote it again:
'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God...<---this is a direct quote from the link you provided.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm not entirely sure what you are saying.

Is this one of those arguments that say God can't create a stone large enough he can't lift?

Well its a pretty big and non-definite middle ground between hyper-literal and hyper-allegorical don't you think?
And the problem seems to be that you've misinterpreted the article anyway, or don't want to know its real significance.
Jesus Christ emptied his own will and became part of God's will. Yes?
The problem then arises with God transcending time and space. Because Jesus would have to have been one or the other. Divine attributes and Human attributes are completely incompatible.
Just look at the Deathspell Omega quote I gave you too. It posits the theory with much greater eloquence and clarity than I can. You also failed to give me evidence of him supposedly changing these laws (which is pretty obscure and I'm not sure if correct).
And I'm sorry if you find it hard to understand but you did ask for an explanation.
Finally no, this isn't one of those amateurish philosophical dilemmas (although I've yet to hear a decent answer to that dilemma), this goes much further into pure Christian Theology itself.
Alistair McGrath, a devout Christian himself and strong opponent of Richard Dawkins even recognises the peril of Kenosis, so much so that his seemingly biased dictionary of Theology books dedicate only a small amount of space to Kenosis and Krypsis (another theory that I won't put forward now as you're having some time getting to grips with this one).
Anyone would think he wanted to forget about something.