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keep the sabbath?

Kimberlee

midians mommy!
I haven't heard of it *blushes* but I will definitely look it up. (I got ZERO religious education as a kid and am trying to make up for it now.)

I don't think it's necessary for non-Jews to keep Shabbat if they don't want to or if it interferes with their ability to earn a living etc., but I think it's great that people do. I think the more mitzvahs we do, the better world we create and if you (or other people) like keeping Shabbat and like the way it brings you closer to G-d, then more power to you.

Curious:
Which of the laws in the Five Books of Moses do you think still apply? How can you tell?

ummm i keep the sabbath and i keep the food laws because i believe they were established before the levitical law and i don't believe they were ever done away with in the NT. like separating the clean and unclean animals on the ark. it was apparently established at least by then. and i believe since he sactified the seventh day in creation of the earth and humanity it applies to all humanity. i dunno that's just me though. i live with my aunt and uncle and they do tora studies on the computer which i find really interesting. i'm learning too as well. we all are everyday:)
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
ummm i keep the sabbath and i keep the food laws because i believe they were established before the levitical law and i don't believe they were ever done away with in the NT. like separating the clean and unclean animals on the ark. it was apparently established at least by then. and i believe since he sactified the seventh day in creation of the earth and humanity it applies to all humanity. i dunno that's just me though. i live with my aunt and uncle and they do tora studies on the computer which i find really interesting. i'm learning too as well. we all are everyday:)

Kimberlee ~ Sorry to tell you but the Genesis flood/Noah's Ark stories never happened in world history, therefor there was no such thing as clean/unclean animals on the ark. Without a real Genesis creation and a real Adam/Eve and a real deluge on earth as the bible suggest Christianity is a bust. With no original sin by Adam/Eve there is no need for Jesus to save us, Christianty is a bust.:yes:
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
because God just said the seventh day and tuesday is not the seventh day saturday is. look at the calender. he didnt call it saturday because we gave the name saturday not God. but we gave that name to the seventh day and the seventh day is suppose to be kept holy. i'm not looking for debate was just wanting discusion among fellow sabbath keepers about what they think about it and how they keep it and why most people have fallen away from it which i think is largly because the catholics admit to changing the day of worship from saturday to sunday.
The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1951 printing, page 50.
Oh, I am not looking for a debate.
Not allowed in a sanctuary.
I just wanted to know which man made thing you use to support your belief that saturday is the seventh day.

You have answered that.
Thank you.
 

Evee

Member
Arlanbb said:
Kimberlee ~ Sorry to tell you but the Genesis flood/Noah's Ark stories never happened in world history, therefor there was no such thing as clean/unclean animals on the ark. Without a real Genesis creation and a real Adam/Eve and a real deluge on earth as the bible suggest Christianity is a bust. With no original sin by Adam/Eve there is no need for Jesus to save us, Christianty is a bust.:yes:
OK, so respectful this time, but seriously, it's in the SAME FAITH DEBATES section! We're stretching it a bit to include all faiths that do or have kept some kind of Sabbath, but you don't seem to have anything constructive to add to the debate. Your G-dlessness is welcome on RF, just not in this thread.

Kimberlee, you keep the food laws? Seriously?! Cool. I don't know any Christians did that. So you basically go with the Genesis ones? What about the 10 commandments? Does your church have graven images? Is it safe to assume that you pray "in Jesus's name"? What about praying to/through saints?

Back to Shabbat: what kinds of things do you do on Shabbat, aside from going to Church, which you mentioned earlier? How do you/your household make it holy?
 
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Kimberlee

midians mommy!
OK, so respectful this time, but seriously, it's in the SAME FAITH DEBATES section! We're stretching it a bit to include all faiths that do or have kept some kind of Sabbath, but you don't seem to have anything constructive to add to the debate. Your G-dlessness is welcome on RF, just not in this thread.

Kimberlee, you keep the food laws? Seriously?! Cool. I don't know any Christians did that. So you basically go with the Genesis ones? What about the 10 commandments? Does your church have graven images? Is it safe to assume that you pray "in Jesus's name"? What about praying to/through saints?

Back to Shabbat: what kinds of things do you do on Shabbat, aside from going to Church, which you mentioned earlier? How do you/your household make it holy?

oh yeah we have been studying the ten commandments. def find the ten commandments very important.
yep i pray in jesus's name and no i don't pray through saints. we don't believe in having pictures of jesus and some people in the church don't even believe in having the cross displayed because we don't wanna have "idols" of any sort.

we try to make the day holy by doing things that glorify God rather it be music or tv... and i'm not saying im perfect at this. i'm working on it though for sure. i don't work on the day obbviously and just try to make it about God the best i can and like i said im really trying to improve on this. i've grown up going to church on the sabbath but didn't make it entirely holy so since i've been older im trying to do a lot better at this. how do you keep it holy? what are some of the things you do on the sabbath?
 

Evee

Member
When I'm staying at my parents' place (which is about half the time this year), I can't really go to Shul, since they don't go and I'm not sure how they'd react if I told them I wanted to. Plus I don't even know where the closest one is...
When I'm traveling, though, I like to go to Shul. Then I like to spend the rest of the day in prayer and meditation. I love it when the weather is nice so I can go sit in a park and think about G-d surrounded by His creation and just Be with Him, you know? When I can, I light candles on Friday night and say a blessing, though I have yet to do the extinguishing ceremony on Saturday night and really have no idea how it goes. I try not to watch TV, but I admit that I use my computer to access the text of the week's Torah portion and commentaries. I think lots of people think that using electricity breaks Shabbat, but I think G-d forgives me since it's the only way I can study Torah. Better that I use electricity than I don't have any access to Jewish ANYTHING.
Everyone I've talked to says that increasing observance is all about taking baby steps and I'm trying not to get impatient with myself, but it's hard when my family wants to go out to a movie Saturday afternoon or my friends don't understand why I don't want to party Friday night...and especially hard when I slip up and really DO go out on Shabbat.
 

Kimberlee

midians mommy!
yeah i def know what you mean. we aren't perfect but at least we are trying right? and will try harder.
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
Your G-dlessness is welcome on RF, just not in this thread.

Evee ~ FYI I do believe in God. But you and Kimberlee don't know earth history and you base your biblical history on a creation that happened about 6000 years ago and a worldwide deluge that never happen either. The foundations of your Sabbath are built on false information from the bible.:D:D
 

Evee

Member
I'm sorry, I assumed you were G-dless because of your "Christianity is a bust" closing line, but that was unfair of me. Please accept my apologies.

I don't understand how you can say there is false information in the Bible. Mistranslations from the Original Hebrew account for a number of ideas in the NT I don't find believable (hence why I'm not a Christian myself), but if you're reading in the original language...

As a former IB Geo student and AP Bio student, I find it a bit galling to be told I don't know Earth history. True, there's a lot I've forgotten and a lot I didn't even begin to learn, but I know that science says the Earth is much older than the 5770 years Judaism credits it with in terms of the way we count years now. However, I believe that the creation story was written with "day" for a reason and that reason doesn't have to be to signify a 24-hour period having passed.

The foundations of Shabbat are the wording of the creation story. In Genesis it clearly states that G-d rested from His work on the seventh day. The 10 commandments tell us to keep the Lord's day holy. What other day could He mean but the one He had rested on? Since that first week, people have been counting the days, and Jews just haven't stopped. THAT'S how we know which day is the Lord's day. The 10 commandments tell us to keep it holy, so I do. History--Biblical or otherwise--doesn't really play into much, except to determine which day really is the Lord's. (And I think if we'd been getting it wrong all these years, He mighta given us a sign. :p)
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
I'm sorry, I assumed you were G-dless because of your "Christianity is a bust" closing line, but that was unfair of me. Please accept my apologies. So accepted.

I don't understand how you can say there is false information in the Bible. I will try to explain. First of all MOST of the Hebrew bible is factual when it is dealing with the Hebrew people after the so called Exodus. Archaeology has proven that there were Hebrew people in what we call Israel back in the 13th century BC. The Hebrew bible has three main stories that conflect with the real history of this earth. The Tower of Babel, Genesis deluge, Genesis creation. Using your Hebrew dating of creation of 5770 years that translates to, give or take a few years, around 3800 BC in archaeological language. Mistranslations from the Original Hebrew account for a number of ideas in the NT I don't find believable (hence why I'm not a Christian myself), but if you're reading in the original language...

As a former IB Geo student and AP Bio student, I find it a bit galling to be told I don't know Earth history. I'm sorry you feel that way but lets continue with my thought. If creation was about 3800BC then according to the bible the Yarmuckian Culture never existed [it lasted from 6400BC down to 5800BC] and the Hassuna Culture never existed [It lasted for 1000 years from 6000BC down to 5000BC] and the Halaf Culture never existed [it lasted for about 1200 years from 5500BC down to 4300BC] and the Samarra Culture never existed [it lasted for about 1100 years from 5200BC down to 4000BC].
Also your bible creation happened right in the middle of the Ubaid Culture which had started in about 5200BC and ended in about 3200BC. Also the Egyption Culture had been going on for over 1200 years before your Hebrew bible creation happened.
Have you ever heard of Megiddo, well the first city ever built at Megiddo happened about 1000 years before your Hebrew bible creation and from 6000BC down to about 0 BC there were 22 different cities built on top of each other during that time period.
I'm sure you have heard of Jericho but I don't think you have heard of Old Jericho. The first town ever built on Old Jericho happened 5000 years before your Hebrew bible said creation happened.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but all these different cultures and cities etc are physical evidence that the early history of nonHebrew people were building homes and cities etc. were living and dying long before the history from the book of Genesis, Long before your Adam/Eve story, i'm i correct?

Now if there were a Noak's ark/worldwide deluge 1600 years after your Hebrew bible creation then wouldn't all this archaeological evidence from BEFORE creation of all these culture and cities be completely destroyed and covered up with flood mud PLUS all the new culture during the 1600 after your Hewbrew creation down to the time of the Genesis deluge? You are not a dumb bunny, you are educated and i'm sure you have some reasonning power, so use it. Did you realize that the Genesis deluge happened right in the middle of the Egyptian empire?? Your Hebrew bible says that @ the biblical flood all people on earth died, correct. If that is so why didn't someone tell the Egyptian they were to have died at that time instead of carrying on for another 2200 years as a nation?

My I suggest you read two books to prove my point. PAST WORLDS Atlas of Archaeology by Collins and ARCHAROLGY of the Land of the Bible - 10,000~586 BCE by a Hebrew named Amihai Mazar-he is a seniou lecture @ th Hebrew Univ. of Jersualem in Israel. In Mazar's book you will notfind a worldwide flood in it from 10,000 to 586BC
Now you know why I used the word "JUNK" which means anything that is regarded as worthless or mere trash for the Genesis stories. :):):) True, there's a lot I've forgotten and a lot I didn't even begin to learn, but I know that science says the Earth is much older than the 5770 years Judaism credits it with in terms of the way we count years now. However, I believe that the creation story was written with "day" for a reason and that reason doesn't have to be to signify a 24-hour period having passed.

The foundations of Shabbat are the wording of the creation story. In Genesis it clearly states that G-d rested from His work on the seventh day. The 10 commandments tell us to keep the Lord's day holy. What other day could He mean but the one He had rested on? Since that first week, people have been counting the days, and Jews just haven't stopped. THAT'S how we know which day is the Lord's day. The 10 commandments tell us to keep it holy, so I do. History--Biblical or otherwise--doesn't really play into much, except to determine which day really is the Lord's. (And I think if we'd been getting it wrong all these years, He mighta given us a sign. :p)
..................................................................................................
 

Evee

Member
Your post is obviously well-researched but completely disregards the bulk mine, specifically the thrid paragraph. To expand:

The current scientific theory of the age of the Earth is well supported by the geological evidence and I have no interest in disproving it. I advance the view that the story of creation has much less to do with time in terms of days and years and much more to do with the rhythm of the Earth and humans specifically. I argue that the reason we should keep Shabbat is because of the word "day" used in the Bible, regardless of whether it is used to signify "24-hour period" (which I personally do not believe, though I can't speak for others) or "stage of creation" (which I think to be much more likely and useful).

I have already studied most of the human history you've laid out. Megiddo is new to me, but Old Jericho is not. I accept it all as fact (or at least a very good approximation), but irrelevant to my observance of Shabbat AND I don't find it a compelling reason to call the book of Genesis "junk". That assessment still stems from wanting "day" in the Creation story to mean 24-hour period, when in fact, when you take a long look at the wording of the Bible, G-d does a bunch of creating, then the Bible says "and it was evening and it was morning, one day" or however many days had passed up to that. Who knows? Many G-d "paused" time while He did the creating, then made a 24-hour day pass. :p

The point is that it isn't useful to take the word "day" literally in the Creation story, nor do I believe that's where its true meaning lies. It's pretty obvious that the world is older than the 5770 we've calculated back from the Bible, as you've very kindly laid out. (That number comes from a bunch of Rabbis in (I believe) the Middle Ages who wanted to figure out how old the Earth was. It's not a result of our day-counting tradition.) But instead of taking this as evidence that Adam and Chava weren't the first people around, I suggest an alternative.

The year-counting Rabbis used Genesis 5 to count how many years passed between Adam and Noah, using that string of "And X begat Y. And all the days of X were so-many-and-such." However, the Bible uses in several cases the word "son" to mean "descendant" (see: G-d's promise to Abraham, the "sons" in Pslam 80, the "child" and "son" of Isaiah 9:15). It's easy to see how several generations could be left out. (And even more in the "begats" between Noah and Abraham) It's no stretch, considering that each of the men mentioned in the geneology also "begat sons and daughters" who remain nameless. The Torah clearly has no qualms about leavning names out. And so, it's very easy to reconcile the ideas of an Earth older than 6000 years old, leaving plenty of time of the nameless sons and daughters of Genesis to become Egyptian, Hassuna, Samarra etc.

You may say it's implausible and you may not believe it. Say I'm stretching it if you want, but it can't be disproven. But I'm reading through the collected adventures of Sherlock Holmes and to paraphrase him, once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how unlikely, is the truth. I don't see how it's possible to stop believing that the Torah is Truth (for me. I get how other people stop believing). I don't see how it's possible to discount the mountain of evidence in favour of an old Earth. Therefore, there is some unlikely-seeming explanation that harmonizes them and I think I've found an OK one so far.

As to the flood, this really isn't the right place for that argument. (I will say that my reading of the Bible can offer no hint as to the actal date of the flood since I don't think the 5770 number is accurate.) I've avoided entering the debate threads about it specifically because I find them too crowded. I will look into those books, though. I do find the historical and geological studies of Biblical times fascinating--when the science is good, that is. I can't stand the anti-evolution pseudo-crap that gets spread around.

As for your choice of words--if you want to see junk, that's all you'll see. In your posts, you've focused mostly on combatting a hyper-rigid and closed-minded interpretation of the Bible which I don't hold. It's not the Bible that's off, it's your interpretation. When you give yourself permission to believe in it, the Bible makes it pretty easy. It was MADE for us to delve into. I guess you could call a surface reading junk, if you were into inflammatory language like that. [I find it usually just gets blood boiling and tend to stay away from expressing myself in it, even if I'm thinking it.] A surface reading really does misunderstand the message AND the purpose both.
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
Your post is obviously well-researched but completely disregards the bulk mine, specifically the thrid paragraph. From your last post your third paragraph starts out: "The foundations of the Shabbat are the wording of the creation story." I agree with what you are saying completely. I kept the Sabbath as a Christian for over 50 years but when I got involved in archaeology and found that ALL the stories in Genesus are false including the creation story then the truth of the Shabbat also falls apart.

You say that the subject of the Genesis deluge has nothing to do with the Sabbath but it has everything to do with it because the Genesis creation and Sabbath and deluge and Adam/Eve and the gernerations of Adam, Noah, sons of Noah, Shem, Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau and Jacob are all part of the same book and if just one story like the Genesis Deluge never happened then that proves the whole book of Genesis is false because they are all tied together as one big story. It the Genesis deluge never happened then you don't have a foundation for the believing in keeping the 7th day as God's Shabbat.

I argue that the reason we should keep Shabbat is because of the word "day" used in the Bible, regardless of whether it is used to signify "24-hour period" (which I personally do not believe, though I can't speak for others) or "stage of creation" (which I think to be much more likely and useful). If you believe the Torah and what it says then you MUST believe that each creation day has to be of a 24-hour period. Read your 10 commandments - Ex. 20:11 "for in SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH....AND RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY..."

I have already studied most of the human history you've laid out. Megiddo is new to me, but Old Jericho is not. I accept it all as fact (or at least a very good approximation), but irrelevant to my observance of Shabbat AND I don't find it a compelling reason to call the book of Genesis "junk". That assessment still stems from wanting "day" in the Creation story to mean 24-hour period, when in fact, when you take a long look at the wording of the Bible, G-d does a bunch of creating, then the Bible says "and it was evening and it was morning, one day" or however many days had passed up to that. Who knows? Many G-d "paused" time while He did the creating, then made a 24-hour day pass. Read Ex. 20:11 again.

The point is that it isn't useful to take the word "day" literally in the Creation story, nor do I believe that's where its true meaning lies. Read Ex. 20:11 again.

You may say it's implausible and you may not believe it. Say I'm stretching it if you want, but it can't be disproven. I fully agree with you about the "begats" and the ways the Jews have come up with 5770 as the age of our world. But your theory of the children of Genesis becoming the Egyptian, Hassuna, Samarra etc. is all dashed to smitherines buy the Story of the Genesis deluge. The biblical deluge says that at a certain time in history the world was covered with water and EVERYONE on earth was killed and only Noah and his sons repopulated the earth. Mazar book "Archaeology of the Land of the Bible * 10,000-586 BCE gives you a complete history of all the people that lived in Israel up to 12,000 years ago. There is no indication of the biblical deluge happening for the last 12,000 years. So if the Genesis story is true it had to have happened before 12,000 years ago and that would be way before the Egyptians and the Hassunas and the Samarras were alive.

When you read your bible in the generations of the sons Noah like in Gen 10 Cush, the first son of Ham, is said to have the beginning of his kingdom at Babel or Babylon. Everyone knows that Babylon was started only about 4000 years ago. And going down to Hams son Canaan in v. 15 it talks about the Canaanites and where they lived etc. which again only goes back about 4000 years ago. So how did the deluge with Noah and his sons that had to happen about 12,000 years ago have his children living 8,000 years later. The evidence proves your theory is impossible unless you think a person can live for 8,000 years and then start his kingdom.

About 9 years ago I did a survey of over 300 archaeologist from all over the world asking them two simple questions. 1- Have you or do you know of anyone that has found evidence of a Genesis Deluge that happened about 4000 years ago? 2- Have you or do you know of anyone that has found evidence of a Genesis deluge that has happened in the last 12,000 years? Eveyone that answered gave the very same answer "NO". I don't know of anyone trained better to find those things than a archaeologist, do you?

If the Genesis deluge really had happened all the glaciers in the world would have floated off their mountians and new one would be there today. The oldest glacier in the world is in Tibet and in 1998 they drilled down into it to check on past climite stuff and have counted the layers and found that at the lowest layer it is about 500,000 years old. Greenland glacier is about 120,000 years old.
Therefore, there is some unlikely-seeming explanation that harmonizes them and I think I've found an OK one so far.So far my evidence has blown your theory to kingdom come.
I can't stand the anti-evolution pseudo-crap that gets spread around. You are so right here.

I believed in Genesis for 50 years and then I found out that none of it really happened when I went to Israel for a archaeological dig in the Jordon Valley.
A surface reading really does misunderstand the message AND the purpose both. Please give me a indepth reading of the Genesis deluge message. You can't because you can not produce any evidence that it ever really happened and I have produced tons of evidence [glaciers] it couldn't have happened.

So now you see why the Sabbath has no foundation to stand on reguarding the creation that never happened in the way the bible tells us it happened.

If you enjoy old history of the bible you will find Mazar book on Archaeology amazing, it is over 500 pages long. You might find a copy at your local library. If you do get the book go to pages 52-58 and read about the Yarmukian culture that I dug in for two summers.
You have a great day and have enjoyed posting with you.:yes:
 

Evee

Member
I have to admit, your evidence against the Flood is convincing. I will definitely be reading up on that more in the days/months/years to come. Let me get smarter (not smarter than you, but certianly smarter than I am now) and come back for another round--sometime in the (perhaps distant) future.

However, I don't follow your argument seems to be structured like this:

1. The Flood never happened
2. The Flood is connected solidly to the rest of Genesis
SO the rest of Genesis must also be false.

I don't think that argument is valid, putting aside entirely the question of whether the premises are true. Tell me if I misread you or provide the links I'm missing. I think it's possible that even IF the Flood never existed, other parts can be true. Why do you think it has to be all or nothing?

Also, about the glaciers. I understand that the ice can be dated by looking at the proportions of different isotopes (oxygen?) trapped in bubbles in snow and ice, but how can scientists tell WHERE on the the ice was when it was formed? How can they tell how long ice has been in a specific place? Is it possible that the ice of the glaciers was formed some 500,000 years ago and really WAS floating during the Flood (suspend your disbelief for a minute to permiet the Flood's existence) and, after it "landed" when the waters receded was compressed into a new glacial formation?

However, that's sort of a tangent, since, while I can't refute your scientific evidence (you clearly have authority and knowledge far beyond mine), I won't discount the Biblical story as irrelevant nonsense yet. I think there's a lot more to be discovered there. I am willing to say that I don't have an answer yet, but I have faith that one exists and I'm trying to find out what it is. (Much like I have faith that we, as humans, will some day solve the P vs. NP problem. I can't do it, maybe nobody currently alive can do it, but it can be done.)

If you believe the Torah and what it says then you MUST believe that each creation day has to be of a 24-hour period. Read your 10 commandments - Ex. 20:11 "for in SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH....AND RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY..."
Again, it uses the same word. If I don't take it to mean "24 hours" in Genesis, why should it have to mean that in Exodus? If it means "stages" the first time, why shouldn't it mean that again?

Another question:
Suppose the Genesis story IS all false, why does that invalidate the commandment G-d gave to Moses at Sinai? (Or do you not believe the Exodus either?) If G-d told you to do it, isn't that enough?
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
.
Hi Evee ~ I really enjoy talking with you, you are not like a lot of the others on this forum. You like to think things through.
However, I don't follow your argument seems to be structured like this:

1. The Flood never happened
2. The Flood is connected solidly to the rest of Genesis
SO the rest of Genesis must also be false.

I don't think that argument is valid, putting aside entirely the question of whether the premises are true. Tell me if I misread you or provide the links I'm missing. I think it's possible that even IF the Flood never existed, other parts can be true. Why do you think it has to be all or nothing? Your thinking again, which is good. Lets say that we both find a book in the library that tells about a lost city in the Himalayes. We read the book and we figure we want to go there and live because people live to the age of up to 900 years and there are so many great people and hardly any sickness and the streets are lined with Gold and soon and soon with marvelous tails. So we set out and follow the trail discribed in the book and after 6 months we arrive in this very nice valley but when we get there we find out that people do not live to be 900 years and there is sickness just like where we came from.
Now from your unbises observation would you say the book was fiction or nonfiction????? If people didn't live to be 900 years old and no streets lined with Gold etc and a so called god wrote the book, would you think the rest of the book was true???
Did you know that there have been thousands of bodies found all over the world, many date back over 50,000 years and not one of them ever reached the age of 120 years. The average age for people that live 10,000 years ago was about 25 years of age, for people that lived 5000 years ago the average age was 35 years, those that lived 200 years ago was about 45 years. Genesis says that some people lived 900 years but the evidence says different. Do you follow the evidence or some book that we really don't know who wrote it. The bible say lets us reason together.

Also, about the glaciers. I understand that the ice can be dated by looking at the proportions of different isotopes (oxygen?) trapped in bubbles in snow and ice, but how can scientists tell WHERE on the the ice was when it was formed?In Tibet the glacier where they took the samples from is land locked, it can't move so the snow that falls there stays there How can they tell how long ice has been in a specific place? The ice is different in Tibet than in Greenland because Tibetian ice shelf is over twice as high up had it has different kinds of ice crystles than the lower elevation of Greenland. Is it possible that the ice of the glaciers was formed some 500,000 years ago and really WAS floating during the Flood (suspend your disbelief for a minute to permiet the Flood's existence) and, after it "landed" when the waters receded was compressed into a new glacial formation? The Tibetian ice shelf is very very large so where else in the world could you form ice that was 500,000 years old and drop it in the only places in the world where it would not melt. What do you think the odds would be for that to happen??

However, that's sort of a tangent, since, while I can't refute your scientific evidence (you clearly have authority and knowledge far beyond mine), I won't discount the Biblical story as irrelevant nonsense yet. I think there's a lot more to be discovered there. I am willing to say that I don't have an answer yet, but I have faith that one exists and I'm trying to find out what it is. (Much like I have faith that we, as humans, will some day solve the P vs. NP problem. I can't do it, maybe nobody currently alive can do it, but it can be done.)

Again, it uses the same word. If I don't take it to mean "24 hours" in Genesis, why should it have to mean that in Exodus? If it means "stages" the first time, why shouldn't it mean that again? Because that would void the 7 days for the creation and the 7 day count for the Sabbath today.

Another question:
Suppose the Genesis story IS all false, why does that invalidate the commandment G-d gave to Moses at Sinai? (Or do you not believe the Exodus either?) If G-d told you to do it, isn't that enough?
Yes - there is no evidence that things in the Exodue ever happened. The Exodus is really just a continue story from the Book Genesis. They stand and fall together. Genesis and Exodus were written by humans, scribs, God did not write one word in the bible. Just because some scribe said God said such and such does not prove that God really said it.
When I read the stories in Genesis and Exodus and find out that what the scribes say that happen and it never happen then I don't think they are telling the truth. That is way I see it.
Without evidence of a worldwide Genesis deluge the early stories in the bible are fiction. :yes:
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
One last point on the Sabbath and how you should keep it. If you believe in book of Exodus and it is the word of God here is what God said to Mose on how he wants his sabbath keep: Ex. 31:12-17 v. 14 "You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; EVERYONE who PROFANES IT shall be PUT TO DEATH....V.15 WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. V16 Therefore the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath...v17 It is a sign forever between me [God] and the PEOPLE OF iSRAEL. Anyway you look at the sabbath according to God the sabbath is a sign between GOD and the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL and if you light a fire and do any physical labor on the sabbath day the people in your village are to KILL you. This is the way God tells the Jews to observe the sabbath. Do you observe GOD's sabbath according to God's commandments??? If not - you are breaking God's law.
I have lived in Israel while on digs and in the kibuts I was in every friday evening the kibuts showed a movie on the big outdoor screen and almost everyone men, women and childen would go see it. Why weren't these people stoned if God's statement in Exodus is true???
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
Evee Also said:
One more thought about the 500,000 year old glaciers being formed before the flood and dropped into Tibet. If I'm not mistaken doesn't Gen 2:5-6 say that the Lord had not caused it to rain on the earth but a mist watered it every day and no one knew what rain was till the Genesis deluge began. Therefore the glaciers on earth can only be as old as the Genesis deluge. If So how come the glaciers are 500,000 years old???:D[/FONT]
 

kingiking

Member
Sabbath is no longer applicable in our time acctually Jesus Crist Break the Sabbath.
Sabbath is for esraelites, not for Christians.

john 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
 

Evee

Member
I really enjoy talking with you, you are not like a lot of the others on this forum. You like to think things through

I'm also enjoying this. You obviously have thought a lot about this and have some intense academic background. (OR you're very good at pretending. ;)) It's refreshing to talk to a real expert (especially when I'm nothing close to one :p).

Your thinking again, which is good. Lets say that we both find a book in the library that tells about a lost city in the Himalayes. We read the book and we figure we want to go there and live because people live to the age of up to 900 years and there are so many great people and hardly any sickness and the streets are lined with Gold and soon and soon with marvelous tails. So we set out and follow the trail discribed in the book and after 6 months we arrive in this very nice valley but when we get there we find out that people do not live to be 900 years and there is sickness just like where we came from.

Your own analogy contradicts your point here... Wasn't it the trail in the book that lead us to the city itself? Parts of the book (the living until 900 years old and never dying) are false, but the trail laid out was true. Wanna try again? I still don't see why it has to be all or nothing.

Yes - there is no evidence that things in the Exodue ever happened. The Exodus is really just a continue story from the Book Genesis. They stand and fall together. Genesis and Exodus were written by humans, scribes, God did not write one word in the bible. Just because some scribe said God said such and such does not prove that God really said it.
When I read the stories in Genesis and Exodus and find out that what the scribes say that happen and it never happen then I don't think they are telling the truth. That is way I see it.
Without evidence of a worldwide Genesis deluge the early stories in the bible are fiction. :yes:

I haven't done a comprehensive study, but I *do* remember seeing a few Discovery Channel documentaries tracing the origins of the Israeli Exodus. One of them definitely menitoned that there was a large migration of people from Egypt to Canaan some 3000 years ago. It posited that the group was made up mostly of slaves, many of whom were probably Egyptians and never believed in G-d and had a bunch of idols with them of their gods anyway. (Perhaps an origin of the Golden Calf story?)

One last point on the Sabbath and how you should keep it. If you believe in book of Exodus and it is the word of God here is what God said to Mose on how he wants his sabbath keep: Ex. 31:12-17 v. 14 "You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; EVERYONE who PROFANES IT shall be PUT TO DEATH....V.15 WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. V16 Therefore the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath...v17 It is a sign forever between me [God] and the PEOPLE OF iSRAEL. Anyway you look at the sabbath according to God the sabbath is a sign between GOD and the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL and if you light a fire and do any physical labor on the sabbath day the people in your village are to KILL you. This is the way God tells the Jews to observe the sabbath. Do you observe GOD's sabbath according to God's commandments??? If not - you are breaking God's law.
I have lived in Israel while on digs and in the kibuts I was in every friday evening the kibuts showed a movie on the big outdoor screen and almost everyone men, women and childen would go see it. Why weren't these people stoned if God's statement in Exodus is true???

There are two parts to this (as I see it). The first is HOW we are to keep Shabbat. The second is the punishment for NOT keeping it.

1. The Torah says that "work" is prohibited on Shabbat. The Hebrew word used is "Melachah", meaing, roughly, "work that creates". The only time we see it is when it's being prohibited (as for Shabbat or important Festivals) or when it's describing the work that went into building the Sanctuary. From this, some rabbis infered that the work we're not allowed to do is creative work, including all the kinds of work that were used to create the Sanctuary in the desert. (Sorry if that was repeating for you. You said you believed Genesis for 50 years, but I wasn't sure from what perspective you were studying.) So, is watching a movie "creative"? Did the Israelites do it in the desert to contruct the Sanctuary? I'm gonna go with "no" on both counts. Most Jews who observe Shabbat don't use any electricity because it's been placed in the same halachic category as fire, but that's a really recent development, only decided in the last fifty or so years. As you can see from the time-stamp on my post, I'm OK with using electricity for G-d-related things on Shabbat. Maybe if I make it all the way back to Torah observance I won't anymore. We'll see.

2. Only the Sanhedrin has the power to put anyone to death. It was never (supposed to be) just the villagers going out to "lynch the sinner!" The commandment to establish courts of justice is older than the commandment to keep Shabbat. Since there's no Jewish court able to ascertain if someone is guilty of breaking the Law, we can't actually punish anyone for it physically. To return from breaking the laws of Shabbat are exactly the same as returning from having broken any other of G-d's laws. You do your teshuvah in this life or in the next one.

Now, about the glaciers. It's true that in Genesis G-d brings mist up from the earth to water the plants, but I'm not sure that the Flood is the first intance of rain. If it were, I would expect Noah and his familiy to be a bit more surprised. It seems to me like the kind of thing G-d would have devoted a line or two to in the story.
"And Noah said unto the L-ord 'G-d! ***? The water is falling from the sky, not just rising from the earth! What's going on?!' And the L-rd said unto him "It's rain. It's new. Get used to it. If you want mist rising from the ground, you'll have to get a sprinkler."
I think something like that would have been included.

The Tibetan one:
Does it matter if the Tibetan glacier is currently land-locked? If the whole world was covered in water, nothing would be landlocked, would it? The glacier that is currently there would have settled just about as soon as the waters started receeding. Regarding the odds that it would happen, do we know that no glaciers were "dropped" and DID melt? Depending on how the Flood coincides with ice ages, it's in fact very likely that there were all kinds of huge glaciers all over the place. The rain would probably have melted parts of some of them, broken them into smaller pieces, etc. In Canada, we have huge landscapes created by receding glaciers and their melting water, dating from the most recent ice age. I guess it's also possible that the glacier started forming right were it is now, was lifted by the Flood, but was sufficiently large that the churning waters weren't able to move it around much so when the waters receded, it was put down roughly where it "grew" in the first place.
 

Evee

Member
Sabbath is no longer applicable in our time acctually Jesus Crist Break the Sabbath.
Sabbath is for esraelites, not for Christians.

john 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Hey King, welcome to RF.

Just curious: do you know of any passages where Jesus breaks the Sabbath? I remember finding one about picking grain from the field, but do you know of others? I was wondering if it was a one-time thing or if Jesus did it habitually. Also, do you think it's actually PROHIBITED for Christians to observe the Sabbath, or just not required?
 

kingiking

Member
Hey King, welcome to RF.

Just curious: do you know of any passages where Jesus breaks the Sabbath? I remember finding one about picking grain from the field, but do you know of others? I was wondering if it was a one-time thing or if Jesus did it habitually. Also, do you think it's actually PROHIBITED for Christians to observe the Sabbath, or just not required?

yes there are other i give one for free

John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
John 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
John 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
John 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
 
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