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Kasina meditation

von bek

Well-Known Member
Hello all.

Was wondering if anyone here has had any experience meditating on the kasinas? Whenever I practice samatha, my focus has been to concentrate on my breathing. I am interested in trying to focus on a kasina, particularly interested in meditating upon a blue one. I have never made a kasina, am considering asking one of the monks at the monastery I attend for assistance on properly making one.

Anyone have a particular kasina that has proven effective for their concentration meditation? If so, would love to hear how you made your kasina and how it has impacted your practice.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Hello all.

Was wondering if anyone here has had any experience meditating on the kasinas? Whenever I practice samatha, my focus has been to concentrate on my breathing. I am interested in trying to focus on a kasina, particularly interested in meditating upon a blue one. I have never made a kasina, am considering asking one of the monks at the monastery I attend for assistance on properly making one.

Anyone have a particular kasina that has proven effective for their concentration meditation? If so, would love to hear how you made your kasina and how it has impacted your practice.

I made a blue kasina disc a couple of years ago, but these days just use it as an aid to anapanasati, which I do with open eyes. I think you're supposed to develop a mental image of the disc and concentrate on that.
Mine is about 9" in diameter but I think that's on the large side. This might be of interest: 3 Ways to Practice Kasina Meditation - wikiHow
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I made a blue kasina disc a couple of years ago, but these days just use it as an aid to anapanasati, which I do with open eyes. I think you're supposed to develop a mental image of the disc and concentrate on that.
Mine is about 9" in diameter but I think that's on the large side. This might be of interest: 3 Ways to Practice Kasina Meditation - wikiHow

Did you notice any change in your meditation while using the blue kasina?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Did you notice any change in your meditation while using the blue kasina?

I think it helps to calm my mind, but that might well be to do with blue being a calming colour - I don't know how it would work with a red disc though!
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I think it helps to calm my mind, but that might well be to do with blue being a calming colour - I don't know how it would work with a red disc though!

I believe the commentaries recommend using a blue kasina if anger or ill-will is a particular obstacle in your practice. Given that advice, it makes sense that you experienced calmness while meditating upon it. Red may be useful for people who are more inclined to lethargy while meditating and need a mental "energy boost". I need to pull Buddhaghosa down from the shelf and see what he says on the matter.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Just thought I would bump this thread back to the top as I am still interested in hearing about any experiences other Buddhists have had with kasina meditations.

Think I may spend a night or two at the monastery this week to engage in intensive meditation. Thinking I may spend some time with a kasina and develop my samatha practice. Been wanting to go and do this for some time, but with my cat having been ill I could not leave her alone for too long. Now, I am able to spend the night away from home without feeling guilty. I plan on rescuing a cat from the shelter soon so I better get some quality time in at the monastery while I have the freedom to do so.
 

Ablaze

Buddham Saranam Gacchami
It had been a while (about a decade) since I practiced meditating on the kasinas, but recently I picked the practice up again. The fire kasina was my first meditation object when I began practicing and now features prominently in my samatha practice. It is quite easy to "make" a fire kasina - anyone who has candles, incense sticks, or matches, not to mention a campfire, fireplace, or bonfire, has ready access to a highly effective concentration device. After even just a few minutes of samatha, focusing on the flame, the image becomes imprinted in the mind (via retinal photoreceptors continuing to transmit neural impulses to the occipital lobe even in the absence of visual input as a result of overstimulation), serving as a natural aid to samadhi.

In practicing with the fire kasina (and consequently the light kasina simultaneously), I have found myself focused so single-pointedly on the light that it leads to the sense of being absorbed in or by the flame. This typically facilitates even deeper states of absorption in which the object of concentration itself drops away. However, I am heedful of the advice of Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa when it comes to kasinas and jhanas when he writes:

Now a clansman who is a beginner and wants to see in this way should make sure that the jhana, which has a kasina as its object and is the basis for direct-knowledge, is made in all ways susceptible of his guidance. Then one of these three kasinas, that is to say, the fire kasina, white kasina, or light kasina, should be brought to the neighborhood [of the arising of divine-eye knowledge]. He should make this access jhana his resort and stop there to extend [the kasina]; the intention is that absorption should not be aroused here; for if he does induce absorption, the [kasina] will become the support for basic jhana, but not for the [direct-knowledge] preliminary work. The light kasina is the best of the three. So either that, or one of the others, should be worked up in the way stated in the Description of the Kasinas, and it should be stopped at the level of access and extended there. And the method for extending it should be understood in the way already described there too. It is only what is visible within the area to which the kasina has been extended that can be seen.

Visudhimagga, XIII, 95

Buddhaghosa then goes on to discuss the simile of a seeker traveling by light of a torch at night. The light dispels the darkness until the flame goes out, in which case the even and uneven parts of the path are no longer evident. In re-igniting the torch, the seeker regains sight of what lies ahead with even greater acuity or clarity of vision. Yet as dawn breaks and the sun rises, there is no further need for the torch, and so it is discarded.

Kasina practice is part of the preliminary work of cultivating access concentration, a means but not an end in itself.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
It had been a while (about a decade) since I practiced meditating on the kasinas, but recently I picked the practice up again. The fire kasina was my first meditation object when I began practicing and now features prominently in my samatha practice. It is quite easy to "make" a fire kasina - anyone who has candles, incense sticks, or matches, not to mention a campfire, fireplace, or bonfire, has ready access to a highly effective concentration device. After even just a few minutes of samatha, focusing on the flame, the image becomes imprinted in the mind (via retinal photoreceptors continuing to transmit neural impulses to the occipital lobe even in the absence of visual input as a result of overstimulation), serving as a natural aid to samadhi.

In practicing with the fire kasina (and consequently the light kasina simultaneously), I have found myself focused so single-pointedly on the light that it leads to the sense of being absorbed in or by the flame. This typically facilitates even deeper states of absorption in which the object of concentration itself drops away. However, I am heedful of the advice of Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa when it comes to kasinas and jhanas when he writes:



Buddhaghosa then goes on to discuss the simile of a seeker traveling by light of a torch at night. The light dispels the darkness until the flame goes out, in which case the even and uneven parts of the path are no longer evident. In re-igniting the torch, the seeker regains sight of what lies ahead with even greater acuity or clarity of vision. Yet as dawn breaks and the sun rises, there is no further need for the torch, and so it is discarded.

Kasina practice is part of the preliminary work of cultivating access concentration, a means but not an end in itself.

Thank you for your reply. I have a copy of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga and refer to it for various matters. It may be one of the single most useful books for a practicing Buddhist, period.

I feel a little intimidated making a kasina on my own. I have read Buddhaghosa's descriptions for their constructions but would feel more comfortable if a monk or lay person with prior kasina experience was there with me, making sure it looks right. The color kasinas seem particularly specific in hue; well, at least that is the impression I get from the commentaries.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
So with the fire kasina, are you concentrating on the actual flame ( eyes open ) or on the mental image of the flame ( eyes closed )?
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
So with the fire kasina, are you concentrating on the actual flame ( eyes open ) or on the mental image of the flame ( eyes closed )?

As I understand the instructions, you would start your practice by focusing on the actual flame; but, what you want is a "counterpart sign" to appear in your mind, free of any defects. That mental image will be what the actual samatha meditation is focused on. This is a subject that I have seen teachers disagree on, though.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
As I understand the instructions, you would start your practice by focusing on the actual flame; but, what you want is a "counterpart sign" to appear in your mind, free of any defects. That mental image will be what the actual samatha meditation is focused on. This is a subject that I have seen teachers disagree on, though.

Yes, that's my understanding, it's the mental image that is the object of concentration. I'm not clear though why the mental image should be more stable as an object than the actual visual image.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Yes, that's my understanding, it's the mental image that is the object of concentration. I'm not clear though why the mental image should be more stable as an object than the actual visual image.

I have some trouble understanding exactly why myself. I will consult the Visudhimagga and see what Buddhaghosa has to say on the matter. He spends some time talking about the counterpart signs and what exactly you should expect when concentrating on different meditation objects. I have read one teacher talk about a counterpart sign appearing when you focus on the breath. You should experience some sort of smoke. Personally, I have never experienced this wispy smoke when concentrating on my breath. Of course, I have not reached the first jhana; but, I do believe I have attained access concentration a time or two. When it has happened, this intense energy flows through me. I have not been able to maintain that state for long. Plus, typically I am only trying to build up enough concentration so I can switch to vipassana. I really need to sit and just work on samatha practice for an hour or so...
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I have some trouble understanding exactly why myself. I will consult the Visudhimagga and see what Buddhaghosa has to say on the matter. He spends some time talking about the counterpart signs and what exactly you should expect when concentrating on different meditation objects. I have read one teacher talk about a counterpart sign appearing when you focus on the breath. You should experience some sort of smoke. Personally, I have never experienced this wispy smoke when concentrating on my breath. Of course, I have not reached the first jhana; but, I do believe I have attained access concentration a time or two. When it has happened, this intense energy flows through me. I have not been able to maintain that state for long. Plus, typically I am only trying to build up enough concentration so I can switch to vipassana. I really need to sit and just work on samatha practice for an hour or so...

It might be worth distinguishing between nimittas, which arise naturally as samadhi develops, and the deliberate visualisation of a mental object which is involved in kasina practice.
I've experimented with kasina practice but generally stick to anapanasati, which seems simpler. ;)

I was interested in your comment about building up enough concentration so you can switch to vipassana - could you say a bit more about that, and about how you approach vipassana? I assume you view it as a separate method?
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I was interested in your comment about building up enough concentration so you can switch to vipassana - could you say a bit more about that, and about how you approach vipassana? I assume you view it as a separate method?

I do view vipassana and samatha as separate meditation practices with different goals and results. The monks at the monastery I attend place great emphasis on vipassana, even for beginners as it is seen as the most effective and direct technique for realization. They instruct us to start with our breath by noting, "breathing, breathing, breathing" or "inhaling, inhaling, inhaling" and move into observing sense objects by simply noting, "hearing, hearing, hearing" when a sound arises and when you become aware of your hands resting on your lap you will note, "touching, touching, touching". You can note objects in several different ways, actually. We simply follow the different categories the Buddha presents in the Satipatthana Sutta. For instance, you can choose to note in terms of the five aggregates, the six sense-bases, the four elements, or some other option that the Buddha presents. (I find noting in terms of the sense-bases is most effective for myself. Other people find greater success noting the aggregates.) You are always placing awareness on what is arising and noting when it dissipates. In vipassana we want to observe the three marks of suffering, impermanence and not-self in our body and mind. I have been instructed that only insight meditation can lead to the four fruits of stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner, and arahant. Samatha can lead to rebirth in the Fine-Material and Formless Realms, this means you are still in samsara but it does serve as a good "backup" destination if you are unable to attain at least stream-entry in this lifetime. The danger of samatha is that you can become attached to the more intensely pleasant feelings and lofty states of consciouness that will arise in this practice.

The subject of which to do first, vipassana or samatha, is another area where you will find disagreement even among contemporary Theravada teachers. Some, such as Pa-Auk Sayadaw, teach that samatha should be mastered up to the fourth jhana before you even attempt vipassana! Though he does allow for an alternate route where you move more quickly into vipassana practice.

I think the two techniques are best developed in tandem. My tradition, though it emphasizes vipassana, does not discard samatha by any means. Again, we are taught to begin with our breath as it is easy to work with and lends itself to both types of meditation practice. Building up concentration in a meditation object allows your mind to relax and be temporarily free of the hindrances which will allow it to be more effective in being aware of the present moment. Of course, the hindrances can be an object for vipassana practice too as the Buddha instructs in the Satipatthana Sutta.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The subject of which to do first, vipassana or samatha, is another area where you will find disagreement even among contemporary Theravada teachers. Some, such as Pa-Auk Sayadaw, teach that samatha should be mastered up to the fourth jhana before you even attempt vipassana! Though he does allow for an alternate route where you move more quickly into vipassana practice.
I think the two techniques are best developed in tandem. My tradition, though it emphasizes vipassana, does not discard samatha by any means. Again, we are taught to begin with our breath as it is easy to work with and lends itself to both types of meditation practice. Building up concentration in a meditation object allows your mind to relax and be temporarily free of the hindrances which will allow it to be more effective in being aware of the present moment. Of course, the hindrances can be an object for vipassana practice too as the Buddha instructs in the Satipatthana Sutta.

Yes, there certainly isn't a concensus on this subject, it very much depends which teacher(s) you listen to. Another view is that samatha and vipassana are just 2 sides of the same coin, and there is no need to separate them - it's all samadhi and greater calm inevitably involves greater clarity. Then there is the whole debate about jhana, what it is, and whether it is necessary or essential. Currently I use simple labelling for maintaining mindfulness off the cushion but generally focus on samatha on the cushion.
I do find that a regular sitting practice is the foundation for developing both calm and clarity.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Yes, there certainly isn't a concensus on this subject, it very much depends which teacher(s) you listen to. Another view is that samatha and vipassana are just 2 sides of the same coin, and there is no need to separate them - it's all samadhi and greater calm inevitably involves greater clarity. Then there is the whole debate about jhana, what it is, and whether it is necessary or essential. Currently I use simple labelling for maintaining mindfulness off the cushion but generally focus on samatha on the cushion.
I do find that a regular sitting practice is the foundation for developing both calm and clarity.


I recently read a fantastic book on this subject that I checked out from the library at the monastery I attend. The book is called, The Experience of Samadhi, and is written by Richard Shankman. In the book Shankman examines different views on samatha/vipassana, laying out different schemes that have been proposed by different teachers on how the two meditation practices are related to one another and what exactly is necessary for realizing nibbana. In the second part of the book Shankman interviews renowned teachers that have a variety of views corresponding to the positions set forth in the first part of the book. What makes it great is that the teachers are allowed to present their respective views and Richard Shankman steps back and lets them.

Amazon.com: The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation (9781590305218): Richard Shankman: Books
 
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