1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...

Discussion in 'Hinduism DIR' started by ajay0, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059

    Many deceptive preachers, when critically examined, turn out to be false. - Kabir



    The enlightened master Kabir here has given a formula for weeding out the false and fraudulent, which has been the scourge of Hinduism and other religions, giving the appearance of the true as false and the false as true, and which is also the distinguishing charecterestic of the present Kali Yuga .

    If this formula of Kabir's is properly used, we can help to clear off much of the falsehood and ignorance that is current in human society at present which is spreading ignorance and delusion. A good gardener obviously starts off by being a good weeder.

    As sage Dattatreya himself stated in the Jnanakhanda of Tripura Rahasya , "A person who employs the force of logic and reasoning in the light of the wisdom presented in genuine scriptures attains the highest truth. "

    Critical examination is a potent key to establishing the true as true and the false as false. I would say this is also a potent key to examine the false and fraudulent within ourselves as well and get rid of it, provided we are honest, diligent and brave. The removal of the false will reveal the true simultaneously, as is the methodology of the jnana yoga technique neti-neti.

    Hope to read insightful posts in this regard over here ! :)
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,868
    Ratings:
    +1,148
    Remove what is false and that which is left is Truth. Sounds simple. :)
    It can be difficult removing concepts we have identified ourselves with; but honest introspection/self-inquiry is where it starts. I am still only beginning my journey at almost 70 years.

    I have always found Kabir's inverted language really uplifting.

    Kabir puts it thus:
    What is seen is not the Truth
    What is cannot be said
    Trust comes not without seeing
    Nor understanding without words
    The wise comprehends with knowledge
    To the ignorant it is but a wonder
    Some worship the formless God
    Some worship His various forms
    In what way He is beyond these attributes
    Only the Knower knows
    That music cannot be written
    How can then be the notes
    Says Kabir, awareness alone will overcome illusion

    Kabir
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,845
    Ratings:
    +7,871
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Why do we need to get this light from scriptures? Who knows how much of that is true or false? Why not check it in independent light? As Jedster said above: "It can be difficult removing concepts we have identified ourselves with ..".

    "Maya bari thagini hum jani; tirgun phans liye kar dole bole madhure bani"
    (Maya is a great deciever, I know; it moves speaking sweet words to entice all three gunas with the bait in hand)

    * That includes the Sattvikas also, the talk of Gods, scriptures, atma and moksha. Even they are not excluded.

    [​IMG] My homage to the absolutely beautiful Sage Kabir.
     
    #3 Aupmanyav, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,868
    Ratings:
    +1,148
     
  5. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    The scriptures, especially the upanishads and the srutis , are the words of enlightened sages, who saw things from the vantage point of enlightenment.

    It is important to take these teachings into account while discriminating between the real and the unreal.

    Following the unreal foolishly can beget great demerit in the form of weakness, suffering later on.

    In the mahabharatha , you can see prince Duryodhana, inspite of repeated instruction by Vidura and Bheesma, following tthe path of body-consciousness and selfishness, and refusing to give even 5 villages to his cousins the pandavas, as requested by Krishna.

    He even insulted a sage who had come to his court advising him to make peace with the pandavas, and got cursed in the process.

    If he had followed the sages, Bheesma's and Vidura's instructions, he could have had a peaceful relationship with the pandavas,and had a long reign as a king himself , but that was not to be due to his foolishness.

    Hence the reason for a proper study of the srutis .The Srutis can be stated to be intellectual benchmarks with respect to the enlightened state of consciousness or the absolute truth. They can serve as a roadmap with respect to the absolute truth and reality of nature, and for attainment of enlightenment oneself.

    The smritis, or man-made laws and customs regulating society, can and ought to be modified with changing times and circumstances for material progress in line with new methods and innovations. Negligence in this regard is the cause for deterioration in material standards.


    The srutis or upanishads came from enlightened sages.

    At present, by satsang with an enlightened master, one can ascertain whether the scriptures are true or not. This is how I was able to comprehend the teachings with clarity and remove my own confusions .

    An another way is to attain enlightenment oneself by following the instructions in the scriptures meticulously. Eckhart Tolle and Ramana Maharhi are those who had attained enlightenment without any prior meeting with enlightened sages. From their own vantage point of enlightened consciousness, they were able to understand the import of the scriptures with clarity, and gave their own teachings in this regard too.

    In this manner, we can check out the truthfulness or falsity of the scriptures in independent light.

    As per Kabir, " Many deceptive preachers, when critically examined, turn out to be false. "

    It is through using the srutis as a benchmark, can one critically examine whether a preacher is correct or not.

    Through this one can prevent mass ignorance and adharma, and enable one to pursue a correct course of action.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,845
    Ratings:
    +7,871
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Scriptures and Sages are a good guide if we do not entirely depend on them. They should not be made into a fetish. Otherwise they are a hindrance.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    For attaining enlightenment, obviously one ought to go beyond the scriptures and sages, as inordinate attachment to them in itself obscures the Self or Awareness within oneself.

    Awareness destroys all karma or vasanas and purifies the consciousness of all psychological content, which is the cause of delusion and suffering.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,284
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Satya-advaita (Truth Accommodation)
    May I be pardoned to suggest that I am enlightened enough to know at the age of nearly 61 that the only way to discern between true and false with certainty is to subject oneself in surrender to God for His guidance. There is a method that one can employ for this which requires steadfast devotion. There is no other way to know the truth because when the chips are down, human beings are not intelligent enough to fathom out the complex situations that may arise in life which would require vital decisions when one is struggling to protect oneself from evil. Yes my friends, the sattvic has to live with rajasics and tamasics in this world so that there is utter evil (tamas) amid which the pure hearted immersed in truth has to survive in or he/she will get persecuted. The true test of his knowledge comes when he has to withstand persecution and harassment from other human beings in his quest to survive: basic survival with dignity nothing more.

    All the logic and reasoning that one does means nothing concrete in terms of whether truth has been ascertained until one has taken guidance from God to make one know whether one has survived with one's dignity in tact.
     
  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,437
    Ratings:
    +12,614
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Tough question. I don't believe in 'absolutely false'. Just as a carpenter might make several mistakes in making a fine piece of furniture, and learn important lessons from each of those, so too perhaps it's necessary to follow teachers at times that appear 'false' to others. After all, we do have reincarnation, and in Hinduism, almost unanimously, each teacher declares that ultimately, you're on your own. No teacher of any quality including the most realised can give you the Self. You have to realise it yourself.

    Yes there might be a few that follow the person-centric Abrahamic mindset that says, 'Only through ME can you find truth." But those Hindu teachers are few and far between, and most people dismiss them with relative ease.

    I don't see it as being particularly useful to judge teachers. That's putting yourself on some pedestal of being wiser than anyone else around. In my experience, one of the greatest lessons I've witnessed is the release of a teacher or a dogma, the leaving of a faith that leads nowhere. These are some of the most shining souls out there ... like that got this huge weight off their shoulders. An acquaintance of mine recently dropped fundamentalist Christianity because his son was gay, and he had to do some serious soul searching. Gosh, he looked good! Far less tense than I'd ever seen him. A huge lesson, and I look forward to seeing him now, as he;s uplifting, rather than a downer.

    How can the soul learn that important lesson, unless it follows the muddy road for awhile?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    Anyone can become a critical examiner of 'deceptive preachers' as Kabir put it, provided he or she has sufficient mastery of the Srutis and corresponding scriptures, and especially association with the wise and enlightened. Such can acknowledge wise souls as well in our midst.

    As Kabir had stated, " A diamond was laying in the street covered with dirt. Many fools passed by. Someone who knew diamonds picked it up."

    In the mahabharatha, you can see that in the rajasuya yajna which Yudhisthira conducted, Shishupala vilified and insulted Krishna in front of all the gathered kings while Bheesma defended him, when Yudhisthira honoured Krishna with the offerings of the yajna.

    Bheesma and Yudhisthira were noted for their proficiency in the scriptures and their association with wise sages.

    Ramakrishna's female teacher Bhairavi Brahmani was the first amongst a skeptic public to acknowledge Ramakrishna as a great soul, quoting from the bhakti scriptures to indicate the similarity in his devotional behavior to that of Radha and Chaitanya. This significantly reduced the skepticism of his family, relatives and friends (who had earlier thought him to be mad) and their attempts to 'reform' him and bring him to worldy ways.

    In Adi Shankaracharya's life itself, there is an incident of an elderly couple bringing their only son to him, whom was thought to be autistic and dullheaded, and who never spoke to anyone. They were worried about what would happen to him after they passed away. Shankaracharya instantly recognised and acclaimed him as a spiritually proficient soul and conversed with him to everyone's surprise. He later became a disciple of his with the name Hastamalaka.

    So I would say critical examination is required , not just to detect 'false preachers', but also to acknowledge wise souls around, so as to profit from their company.

    Also 'deceptive preachers' have been making the news of late recently, after getting caught by the police, traumatising their gullible followers.

    I remember reading in the newspapers of one such elderly fraud, arrested for sexual misconduct, shouting with conviction while being lead by the police that he was Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh, and he should not be treated thus.

    Some of these fraudsters are even sincere but plain stupid due to their delusions, and their sincere speech and convictions usually make gullible people think that they are indeed right , and make them follow them.

    This is similar to Adolf Hitler who was similarly a very sincere man,but plain stupid and uneducated, and who enforced his idiotic agendas to the world's distress. Bin Laden is another such. Their sincerity gives them a lot of charisma which charm people into following them to disaster.

    Critical examination of such fraudsters and pseudo-gurus in the beginning would have nipped these issues in the bud itself.

    Thus the capacity to critically examine each and everything to determine its intrinsic value is a very valuable trait, as taught by Kabir and should be well-developed in all.
     
    #10 ajay0, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Kapalika

    Kapalika EDM dancing gaygirl mystic
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,020
    Ratings:
    +1,385
    Religion:
    Shaivism & LHP
    Could you expand on this? What should we also use as a guide to put it all in balance?
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,845
    Ratings:
    +7,871
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Read them all, but finally one's own 'viveka' (analysis) like Buddha said in Kalama sutta:

    "Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, enter on and abide in them."
    Kalama Sutta - Wikipedia
     
    #12 Aupmanyav, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  13. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    Apart from these real Jivan-Muktas, there are some Sadhakas who take up Jnana-Yoga. They read treatises on the subject and by constant reading they come to a mental understanding of the nature of the Self or Atman. But these people do not attain Samadhi and cannot gain real wisdom. Mere book knowledge is always very shallow. They do not gain the permanent, steady state of the mind and perfect Wisdom which come only after Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But these people are too hasty to think that they have gained True Wisdom and begin to call themselves Jivan-Muktas.

    -- Swami Narayananda ( A practical Guide to samadhi )


    Swami Narayananda ( 1902-1988 ), a prolific scholar and realized sage, here through his extensive experience in yoga and Hinduism, gives us an insight into the intricacies of how people delude themselves in Jnana Yoga, and consider themselves to be enlightened after merely reading some books or treatises on the subject without meditation or Samadhi. (The above is an excerpt from his book ' A practical Guide to samadhi'.)

    Such shallow people then deludedly call themselves Jivan-muktas and then start preaching for ego-gratification and followers advertising their enlightenment. It is important to be wary of such fraudsters through the exercise of critical examination or critical thinking, as Kabir taught us, so that one does not similarly fall into the pits of delusion and cause self-injury, and help others to do so as well. This is in itself a great service to society.
     
    #13 ajay0, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  14. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059

    Here Mahatma Gandhi too, echoing Kabir's warning, exhorts us to intelligently distinguish between the genuine and the fraudulent, so that we can keep off dussang ( bad company) and benefit from true satsang ( good company), which has been considered as one of the doorways to liberation by Rishi Vasistha in the Yoga Vasistha ( discourses with Rama). This ability to distinguish between the genuine and fraudulent by patient critical examination is the dividing line between success and failure in all walks of life.

    Dussang is the source of inauspiciousness, falsehood and adharma, while satsang is the source of auspiciousness, truth and dharma.
     
  15. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,284
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Satya-advaita (Truth Accommodation)
    To survive and exist in this world one needs to focus on truth so that one sees the dangers to ones existence and takes appropriate steps against these elements. By meditation on truth truth will come to the person for truth is the access pathway to the attainment of reality that is necessary for survival. The reality is that I exist and must exist in reality or I will perish. This necessarily has to be in the utmost ultimate reality that exists as there are infinite levels of reality because every insect, cat, dog, monkey, human being has a perception of reality which changes through their lives even from moment to moment. Therefore the quest for the ultimate reality is needed to optimise survival and simply exist.

    Hindus term this existence of the self in the perceived reality as advaita. They think it is a spiritual endeavour. It is in fact the process of realisation required for survival brought into play by an intensive study of the internal and external environment.

    There are different levels of attainment of realisation. Total realisation is attained through satya-advaita or truth accommodation.
     
    #15 Shantanu, Oct 7, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  16. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    Ramana Maharshi once said (regarding a book that misinterpreted his teachings), ‘According to the purity of the mind the same teaching reflects in different ways’.


    So,in other words, we each interpret and understand any teaching according to the relative purity of our own mind.
    This is why along with intellectual study, the purification of the mind through meditation and other practices is emphasized in Hinduism.

    As per the preponderance of sattva, rajas or tamas, we tend to interpet teachings as per our mental tendencies. Among the gunas, it is sattva that comes closest to the Self or pure consciousness leading to accuracy in interpretation, while tamas leads to the greatest inaccuracy and distortion.

    Hence along with scriptural study, it is also important to have a sattvic lifestyle to accurately gauge the teachings with the proper understanding. And this involves adherence to the yama niyamas.


    There is an insightful thread by Crossfire that sheds further light on this .....


    Looking for this fable
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,284
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Satya-advaita (Truth Accommodation)
    The only purity of the mind that matters is the steadfast adherence to truth, not the weeding out of so-called impurities like 'inappropriate' thoughts. The mind must follow the truth path.
     
  18. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    Man is made for error; it enters his mind naturally, and he discovers a few truths only with the greatest effort. - Frederick the Great

    Frederick the Great is a brilliant military commander and ruler known for his patronage of the arts and the Age of Reason in Eurppe,an intellectual and philosophical movement that dominated the world of ideas in Europe during the 18th century, the "Century of Philosophy".


    The above saying by Frederick shows that the human mind is naturally disposed to error, and the truth can be discovered only with the greatest effort. Indeed, the discovery of the truth and adherence to truth is a great austerity in itself. Sri Ramakrishna stated that adherence to the truth is the greatest austerity in the kali yuga and all else fade before it.

    Most people are incapable of doing so, and hence comes under the sway, silver tongue and charisma of pseudo-scholars and fraudsters, dancing to their tune.

    It is the duty of the scholar to distinguish between the true and the false, truth and propaganda and delusion, and to empower the masses by knowledge to distinguish between the same.
     
  19. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,284
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Satya-advaita (Truth Accommodation)
    This is worth considering if only Kabir was alive to answer the questions that arise from his assertion.
     
  20. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,719
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    'You take action only after proper investigation.' - Vanaras to Sri Rama ( during a discussion in the Ramayana)

    One can see here the Avatar Rama being praised for his investigative skills. This skillset enabled Rama to understand the proper course of action in every situation and circumstance and aided his judgement, resulting in precise understanding, decision-making and performance.

    Like Kabir, Rama teaches us by example to have a good critical investigative skillset, which will enable us to distinguish between the right and wrong, genuine and fraudulent.

    The right course of action will guide us to spiritual and material success, peace and happiness in life while the wrong course of action will lead us to failure, disgrace and long spells of repentance later on.

    The choice is ours alone to make.
     
Loading...