Justification by being Christian?

[David Davidovich]

These are great versus - I'm not sure how it applies to what i was talking about. There are consequences or benefits to what we believe and do but even in the versus given, he isn't forcing.

I see. However, the whole of what I was saying was:

I think that you just hit the nail on the head, Ken, because from what I know about Christianity and from other Christians that I've talked to, it is about their own personal experiences with Christianity. However, the problem comes in when they feel like they need to impose their beliefs on others and that others should have their beliefs because if not, they are sinning or betraying Jesus.

Well, I would say that when given ultimatums, then that would constitute forcing. And sure, one can choose not to have those beliefs, however, who wants the threat of death and destruction hanging over their head?

 

[David Davidovich]

Those are a lot of verses... maybe if we diced them one at a time?

Sure. Would you like to start?

 

[Kenny]

I see. However, the whole of what I was saying was:



Well, I would say that when given ultimatums, then that would constitute forcing. And sure, one can choose not to have those beliefs, however, who wants the threat of death and destruction hanging over their head?

I guess is how we look at it.

If I were to say, "SONNY, You don't want to go 100 mph in his car! If you do this, you are going to die, makes one wonder if you are forcing your child or just warning him.

 

[Kenny]

I thought I would start here remembering that we have to take a letter as a "whole" and the "complete" message lest we pick out a certain portion and make a personal doctrine out of it.

Also, keep in mind that "sinning" or 'falling away' in those verses can be considered as disagreeing with or deciding that you no longer want to follow your Christian faith, or that you have found a different philosophy or faith or worldview.

I wouldn't agree with that interpretation of it is "disagreeing". I understand "falling away" as the second part of what you are saying which is leaving your faith. (Granted, anyone can say this is your personal viewpoint -- but such as it is, it is still my position).

Not saying that you can't have a different worldview which, IMO, doesn't equate as to leaving your faith.

For an example, if you have a worldview of "God instantaneously created all things" and then changed your worldview to "God created all things through an evolutionary process" - I don't think that equates as "leaving your faith".

So, before I continue to address one of your points: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 - English Standard Version , I want to make sure I understand what you are trying to address (since the previous post I answer leads me to this question #23)

Is you point that you think God is saying "YOU EITHER ACCEPT ME OR I AM GOING TO PUNISH YOU!" or along the lines of God saying "Please don't go there because there is nothing but destruction that will befall you."?

 

[David Davidovich]

I guess is how we look at it.

If I were to say, "SONNY, You don't want to go 100 mph in his car! If you do this, you are going to die, makes one wonder if you are forcing your child or just warning him.

Or one can look at a hostage situation where the perpetrator tells the victim (or one of the victims) that if they don't do this or that, then they will die. Therefore, I would think that for most people, they really wouldn't a choice in the matter and are being forced to comply.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, keep in mind that "sinning" or 'falling away' in those verses can be considered as disagreeing with or deciding that you no longer want to follow your Christian faith, or that you have found a different philosophy or faith or worldview.

I wouldn't agree with that interpretation of it is "disagreeing". I understand "falling away" as the second part of what you are saying which is leaving your faith. (Granted, anyone can say this is your personal viewpoint -- but such as it is, it is still my position).

Not saying that you can't have a different worldview which, IMO, doesn't equate as to leaving your faith.

For an example, if you have a worldview of "God instantaneously created all things" and then changed your worldview to "God created all things through an evolutionary process" - I don't think that equates as "leaving your faith".

But this is not exactly what I was talking about, Ken. But someone that came to mind it a well know music artist named Tina Turner. Tina had a Christian Baptist background, however, later in life she became a Buddhist, and it completely changed her life for the better.

However, depending on one's denomination or religious group, some groups are very condemning and unforgiving if someone either leaves or doesn't accept Christianity. Also, I have friends and family members who have a problem with me for having not embraced their Christian faith. However, I have had discussions with them about this topic and we have come to a better understanding about things and how we relate to each other. Although, there are some faiths who consider you as being dead to them and/or as being evil for leaving their faith.

However, you seem more like a person whose Christian group or denomination is more welcoming, compassionate, and forgiving to those who have a different viewpoint than you. So, that is why I commented on what you said about a person's personal experience and how your experience has been very valuable and an asset to you. However, that is not exactly written in stone for all Christian denominations and Christian experiences.

So, before I continue to address one of your points: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 - English Standard Version , I want to make sure I understand what you are trying to address (since the previous post I answer leads me to this question #23)

Is you point that you think God is saying "YOU EITHER ACCEPT ME OR I AM GOING TO PUNISH YOU!" or along the lines of God saying "Please don't go there because there is nothing but destruction that will befall you."?

Well, from the experience that I've had with Christians groups, I would say that the interpretation of those groups would be God is saying "YOU EITHER ACCEPT ME OR I AM GOING TO PUNISH YOU!"

 

[Kenny]

Or one can look at a hostage situation where the perpetrator tells the victim (or one of the victims) that if they don't do this or that, then they will die. Therefore, I would think that for most people, they really wouldn't a choice in the matter and are being forced to comply.

But it isn't a hostage situation. He already laid down His life to help us.

 

[Kenny]

But this is not exactly what I was talking about, Ken. But someone that came to mind it a well know music artist named Tina Turner. Tina had a Christian Baptist background, however, later in life she became a Buddhist, and it completely changed her life for the better.

However, depending on one's denomination or religious group, some groups are very condemning and unforgiving if someone either leaves or doesn't accept Christianity. Also, I have friends and family members who have a problem with me for having not embraced their Christian faith. However, I have had discussions with them about this topic and we have come to a better understanding about things and how we relate to each other. Although, there are some faiths who consider you as being dead to them and/or as being evil for leaving their faith.

However, you seem more like a person whose Christian group or denomination is more welcoming, compassionate, and forgiving to those who have a different viewpoint than you. So, that is why I commented on what you said about a person's personal experience and how your experience has been very valuable and an asset to you. However, that is not exactly written in stone for all Christian denominations and Christian experiences.



Well, from the experience that I've had with Christians groups, I would say that the interpretation of those groups would be God is saying "YOU EITHER ACCEPT ME OR I AM GOING TO PUNISH YOU!"

Can't deny that, for sure...

But ultimately, who is the judge? It surely isn't the Baptist church.

 

[David Davidovich]

Can't deny that, for sure...

But ultimately, who is the judge? It surely isn't the Baptist church.

You'd be surprised how judgmental some religious groups are.

 

[Kenny]

You'd be surprised how judgmental some religious groups are.

As I said.... can't deny that but it doesn't change truth. With follow Jesus and not religious groups.