Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Saint Frankenstein]

If there was no apostasy, you're right. If there was, you're wrong. And this is a point upon which we will never agree. Evidently, though, you must believe that some sort of apostasy took place. Otherwise you would be a Catholic.

Or an Orthodox Christian. Both are valid.

 

[InChrist]

And if there is a lack of agreement between the "many people" as to what they should believe, what then? Or doesn't it matter?

I think there just is agreement between all true born again believers who have received new life in Christ when it comes to the fundamental doctrines of the Bible. When there is a lack of agreement on other more questionable issues then I believe Christians are to seek the Lord and behave as Paul instructs believers ... I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph. 4:1-3

When I was in the Mormon Church one of things which was often stated to validate that it was the true church was that anywhere in the world, in any ward, on any given Sunday, the same lessons were being covered. I used to think this made sense. Now I realize this kind of central organizational control was only outward unity and is quite different from the way God uniquely works by the Spirit in each person's life and each group of believers to bring about sanctification, maturity, and oneness in Christ.
It does matter.

 

[Katzpur]

Or an Orthodox Christian. Both are valid.

Agreed.

 

[Katzpur]

The thing that arouses my suspicion is the fact that Joseph was involved in spiritism. That in itself is what has me scratching my head, why?

Because of this warning from Gods Word the bible:

Deut 18:10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire,+ anyone who employs divination,+ anyone practicing magic,+ anyone who looks for omens,+ a sorcerer,+11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium+ or a fortune-teller,+ or anyone who inquires of the dead.+12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.+

​

Do you really believe that God would condemn such a person, but then choose such a person to become one of his prophets? I find that hard to reconcile.

​

Well, Moses committed murder, and God definitely condemns murder. Still, God chose Moses to become one of his prophets. Do you also find that hard to reconcile? See, God's got a problem when it comes to picking perfect men. There aren't any.

 

[Pegg]

Well, Moses committed murder, and God definitely condemns murder. Still, God chose Moses to become one of his prophets. Do you also find that hard to reconcile? See, God's got a problem when it comes to picking perfect men. There aren't any.

Well thats a good point, but I dont think Moses had the intention to murder anyone. What he did was apparently an accident, a spur of the moment thing.
Spiritism is something that Joseph smith was a practicer of. He earned a living through divination and that would explain why he had such an experience in the first place. Inviting the demons into our world is what spiritism is all about...its opens a door.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Apparently you believe solely in what is often called "the invisible Church." I believe in both "the invisible Church" and "the visible Church." Everything Paul said about the impending apostasy leads to the conclusion that he was referring to the visible Church.

This is a good topic to discuss here. So, do Mormon folk believe that there is salvation outside of the formal organised and "visible" LDS church?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Hong - I'm interested to hear if you knew there are multiple accounts of Smith's First Vision. Here is the very first documented account, written 12 years later in Joseph Smith's journal:

"marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath thewise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of firelight above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could reioice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and but after many days"

Joseph Smith's Handwritten 1832 First Vision

It vastly differs from the account your referenced. Notice there is no evil presence and just one deity.

Yes, I'm aware of the various versions but for the sake of academic debate I wish to focus on one version....the "official" LDSs' church's accepted, published version. From my perspective, there is no point in discussing visions that are not accepted as the "original" by the LDS church. But you raise an interesting point and that is a topic on it's own. Maybe you could start a thread about it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I think there just is agreement between all true born again believers who have received new life in Christ when it comes to the fundamental doctrines of the Bible. When there is a lack of agreement on other more questionable issues then I believe Christians are to seek the Lord and behave as Paul instructs believers ... I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph. 4:1-3

When I was in the Mormon Church one of things which was often stated to validate that it was the true church was that anywhere in the world, in any ward, on any given Sunday, the same lessons were being covered. I used to think this made sense. Now I realize this kind of central organizational control was only outward unity and is quite different from the way God uniquely works by the Spirit in each person's life and each group of believers to bring about sanctification, maturity, and oneness in Christ.
It does matter.

As I live in Indonesia, I see Islam in action every day. Muslims are really strict on trying to keep a "true Islam", similar in many ways to what some Christians teach about having the "true church". Any Muslim who suggests unorthodox views is persecuted, and often killed. There is a Muslim sect in Indonesia that broke away from mainstream Islam and they have their own prophet.....one that came after Mohammad. However, in Islam this is strictly forbidden as a principle tenet of Islam is that "Mohammad is God's prophet and the last prophet". I would like to do more research into this sect. It is possible that this prophet had a vision too.

 

[Muffled]

I can confirm from the Holy Spirit that it wasn't. Which of us is correct?

I believe one of us must be incorrect about hearing from the Holy Spirit. That is not an easy thing to determine. However I have confirmation that it is the Holy Spirit in me by the fulfillment of prophecy. Can you say the same?

 

[Muffled]

I believe the biblical scriptures confirm that the vision of Joseph Smith was another gospel than that of simple faith in the Savior Jesus Christ which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3) In other words a false gospel which Paul warned against..

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

I believe that I see no different gospel in the vision. Are you seeing it with mirrors or just inagining it?

 

[Muffled]

True, there is no mention specifically of Joseph Smith by name or his vision and enterprise to start a new church organization. I think the epistles would be much more wordy if every individual who ever came along with another gospel was listed. The point is that the scriptures state the gospel is simple faith in the grace of Christ and this message has been delivered. Any new or other gospel message is false wherever it comes from, even and angel or a man with a vision.



I think using this verse from Amos and trying to make it apply to apostasy in the NT church is totally taking it out of its context when its application was for the land or kingdom of Israel, not the whole world. Amos was referring to a lack of any comforting word from the Lord for the northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 8:2-14) in the face of its impending conquest by the Assyrians, which took place some forty years later in 722 BC. This was about the military conquest of the northern kingdom of Israel in the eighth century BC, not about an alleged Great Apostasy of the Christian church a millennium later.



I have no dispute that Paul and other apostles warned of apostasy, false teachers, etc. in the church of their day and in the future. I also believe that such apostasy will continue to grow worse before Christ's return, but to say that the entire church Jesus established disappeared due to complete apostasy I think is completely against the scriptures and historical reality.
Jesus Himself, when speaking of false prophets and apostasy said "many'" would fall away, but He didn't say "all" would fall away ( Matthew 24;10-13). He also promised His disciples or those of His church that He would be with then until the end of the age..."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:19-20).

If there was no Great Apostasy as Joseph Smith claimed there was, then there was no need for a restoration of the gospel or church which has always been present on the earth. I believe this makes Joseph Smith a false prophet with a different gospel according to the biblical scriptures.

I believe the spirit in the vision never stated directly that the gospel was wrong or that scriptures were not correct only that the churches were wrong about things. In my experience the Holy Spirit has taken exception to every different denomination I have learned about but that does not mean that He takes exception to the Gospel.

I repeat I believe no such new gospel is to be found in the vision.

I believe there is nothing in the vision that addresses aposatasy.

I believe you will have to source this because it isn't in the vision.

 

[Katzpur]

This is a good topic to discuss here. So, do Mormon folk believe that there is salvation outside of the formal organised and "visible" LDS church?

Because I really don't have much time to post today, I'm going to give you a link to another post in which I answered this question for someone else. I hope that will do for now.

 

[zomg]

This is a good topic to discuss here. So, do Mormon folk believe that there is salvation outside of the formal organised and "visible" LDS church?

Only people who are baptized, endowed, learn the tokens and signs, and are sealed via a Mormon marriage can enter the top level of the Celestial Kingdom and, supposedly, progress to godhood and stuff.

So....nope!

 

[Katzpur]

Well thats a good point, but I dont think Moses had the intention to murder anyone. What he did was apparently an accident, a spur of the moment thing.
Spiritism is something that Joseph smith was a practicer of. He earned a living through divination and that would explain why he had such an experience in the first place. Inviting the demons into our world is what spiritism is all about...its opens a door.

I don't believe for one minute that Joseph Smith ever invited demons into our world. No prophet the Lord has ever called has been perfect. Joseph was no exception, but that doesn't mean that the Lord could not have used him for a great work.

 

[Yoshua]

That although there was an apostasy, that didn't mean there were no true Christians alive after that apostasy took place.

Hi Katzpur,

Nice meeting you again. If there are true Christians like Paul the Apostle alive, should you think there should need a Joseph Smith, or should God send a prophet in the year 1800's?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I don't believe for one minute that Joseph Smith ever invited demons into our world. No prophet the Lord has ever called has been perfect. Joseph was no exception, but that doesn't mean that the Lord could not have used him for a great work.

Hi Katzpur,

Demons should not need to be invited. He is everywhere waiting someone who he thinks he may devour in deception.

Thanks

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

Nice meeting you again. If there are true Christians like Paul the Apostle alive, should you think there should need a Joseph Smith, or should God send a prophet in the year 1800's?

Thanks

When I say there are and always have been true Christians alive, I am referring to people who look to Jesus Christ for salvation, who consider him to be the Only Begotten Son of God, and who do their best to live their lives as Christ told us to. These individuals, according to Mormon belief, are "true Christians" in every sense of the world. A prophet and an apostle, on the other hand, is someone who holds the authority given by Jesus Christ to direct Christ's Church here on earth. It's someone He has authorized by the Lord to speak on His behalf in matters that pertain to the Church as a whole. Mormons believe that the reason so many different Christian denominations have arisen is that there were no more prophets and apostles left on earth to receive revelation from the Lord. People interpreted the Bible as best they could, but it was not always done so correctly, and the priesthood authority held by the original apostles was simply non-existent. We believe that once Jesus Christ and His appointed apostles were all gone, men changed His Church in so many ways (both doctrinally and organizationally) that the only way it could be re-established was if Christ himself were to be involved. And we believe that with Joseph Smith's First Vision, the events which were needed to re-establish Christ's original Church started to take place.

 

[Nietzsche]

I can confirm by the Holy Spirit that he had a valid experience with God in this instance.

I can confirm from the Holy Spirit that it wasn't. Which of us is correct?

I believe one of us must be incorrect about hearing from the Holy Spirit. That is not an easy thing to determine. However I have confirmation that it is the Holy Spirit in me by the fulfillment of prophecy. Can you say the same?

Y'know, there's a third option.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Here is a copy of Joseph Smith's first vision.....

Extract from Joseph Smith 2 [background information first....In 1820, Joseph Smith had a question about which of the Protestant denominations was correct, which he wanted to ask God about]

Joseph Smith 2:15-20a following...."After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But , exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know of which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right- and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I can not write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into Heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home."

Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

This was not Smiths first vision. He often told fortunes and the location of treasures by putting his "seer stone" in his hat and peering into it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I believe one of us must be incorrect about hearing from the Holy Spirit. That is not an easy thing to determine. However I have confirmation that it is the Holy Spirit in me by the fulfillment of prophecy. Can you say the same?

I can confirm from the Holy Spirit, the presense of God, that lives in me, and from the word of God that I am correct.