Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Katzpur]

I believe the biblical scriptures confirm that the vision of Joseph Smith was another gospel than that of simple faith in the Savior Jesus Christ which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3) In other words a false gospel which Paul warned against.

Actually, there are no scriptures that even mention Joseph Smith's vision, so they clearly could not confirm that it was the false gospel you claim it is.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 2 Corinthians 11:3-4[/QUOTE]Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.

In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

We Latter-day Saints contend that this prophecy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.

Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:

Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…"

Galatians 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…"

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…"

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1) the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure. He was most definitely referring to the time in the immediate future and not about a time 1800 years from them. Unfortunately, his prophesies absolutely did come to fruition, and "another gospel" slowly took over the Church Jesus Christ had established.

 

[InChrist]

Actually, there are no scriptures that even mention Joseph Smith's vision, so they clearly could not confirm that it was the false gospel you claim it is.

True, there is no mention specifically of Joseph Smith by name or his vision and enterprise to start a new church organization. I think the epistles would be much more wordy if every individual who ever came along with another gospel was listed. The point is that the scriptures state the gospel is simple faith in the grace of Christ and this message has been delivered. Any new or other gospel message is false wherever it comes from, even and angel or a man with a vision.

Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.

In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

I think using this verse from Amos and trying to make it apply to apostasy in the NT church is totally taking it out of its context when its application was for the land or kingdom of Israel, not the whole world. Amos was referring to a lack of any comforting word from the Lord for the northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 8:2-14) in the face of its impending conquest by the Assyrians, which took place some forty years later in 722 BC. This was about the military conquest of the northern kingdom of Israel in the eighth century BC, not about an alleged Great Apostasy of the Christian church a millennium later.

We Latter-day Saints contend that this prophecy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.

Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians..

I have no dispute that Paul and other apostles warned of apostasy, false teachers, etc. in the church of their day and in the future. I also believe that such apostasy will continue to grow worse before Christ's return, but to say that the entire church Jesus established disappeared due to complete apostasy I think is completely against the scriptures and historical reality.
Jesus Himself, when speaking of false prophets and apostasy said "many'" would fall away, but He didn't say "all" would fall away ( Matthew 24;10-13). He also promised His disciples or those of His church that He would be with then until the end of the age..."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:19-20).

If there was no Great Apostasy as Joseph Smith claimed there was, then there was no need for a restoration of the gospel or church which has always been present on the earth. I believe this makes Joseph Smith a false prophet with a different gospel according to the biblical scriptures.

 

[Katzpur]

If there was no Great Apostasy as Joseph Smith claimed there was, then there was no need for a restoration of the gospel or church which has always been present on the earth. I believe this makes Joseph Smith a false prophet with a different gospel according to the biblical scriptures.

If there was no apostasy, you're right. If there was, you're wrong. And this is a point upon which we will never agree. Evidently, though, you must believe that some sort of apostasy took place. Otherwise you would be a Catholic.

 

[Pegg]

Door to door witnessing, like street witnessing is ultimately a waste of time. This isn't just true of Mormons, but of JW's and other assorted beliefs, too. The reason for this is that if someone isn't ready/willing to convert, nothing you say is ever going to change their mind. And if they are ready to convert, they'll probably have found some means of doing so before you ever knock on their door.

Jesus also witnessed from door to door... i dont think he felt it was a waste of time.

 

[Mycroft]

Jesus also witnessed from door to door... i dont think he felt it was a waste of time.

Yeah but, at least according to the bible, he was also able to prove was he said and didn't have a criminal history. Unlike Smith.

 

[InChrist]

If there was no apostasy, you're right. If there was, you're wrong. And this is a point upon which we will never agree. Evidently, though, you must believe that some sort of apostasy took place. Otherwise you would be a Catholic.

As I said I certainly believe there was apostasy, but also believe there were always Bible believing Christians outside the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church claims that the early Christians were all Roman Catholics, and that (aside from the Orthodox Church) all Christians were Roman Catholics until the Protestant Reformation. It claims that the Apostle Peter was the first Pope, ruling from Rome. It also claims that it gave us the Bible. But do these claims stand up to the test of history?
Early Christians

 

[Katzpur]

As I said I certainly believe there was apostasy, but also believe there were always Bible believing Christians outside the Catholic Church.

Well, then we agree on something.

 

[Pegg]

Here is a copy of Joseph Smith's first vision.....

Extract from Joseph Smith 2 [background information first....In 1820, Joseph Smith had a question about which of the Protestant denominations was correct, which he wanted to ask God about]

Joseph Smith 2:15-20a following...."After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But , exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know of which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right- and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I can not write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into Heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home."

Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

I believe he did have such an experience. Mohammad had a similar experience and im sure many others did too.

But I dont believe the source of the experience was from God. Joseph was a known diviner. He practiced divination as did many people back in his day and once you start dabbling in spiritualistic practices you open a doorway to the 'spirits in prison'

Even from his own account he admits that the first spirit who approached him was an enemy... it was obviously frightening and prompted him to call out to God for help. But I dont believe the two shining spirits who came to him were any different to the first one. There is a scripture which warns us:

2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.+​

 

[Pegg]

Yeah but, at least according to the bible, he was also able to prove was he said and didn't have a criminal history. Unlike Smith.

??? in Gods eyes, we all have a criminal history, mate

 

[InChrist]

Well, then we agree on something.

I'm sure we may agree on many things, but in reference to the comment above I'm not sure what you are referring to that we agree on.

 

[Katzpur]

Even from his own account he admits that the first spirit who approached him was an enemy... it was obviously frightening and prompted him to call out to God for help.

Clearly, if he was going to be the individual through whom original Christianity would be reestablished, the Adversary would have had a real motive for trying to thwart the plan. I can't imagine you'd disagree with that.

But I dont believe the two shining spirits who came to him were any different to the first one.

Actually, the "two shining spirits" were God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

There is a scripture which warns us:

2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.+​

Here's the way I see it. If Satan wanted to make sure that Joseph's prayer went unanswered, he would have done exactly what he did. In that case, God would want to make sure that this didn't happen. He (God) certainly wouldn't want Satan to succeed in what he was doing. Ultimately, either God or Satan would prevail. So ultimately, it sounds as if what you are saying is that there is no conceivable way for Joseph Smith's statement of what happened to be true, because at the end of the day, Satan is the one who is in control.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm sure we may agree on many things, but in reference to the comment above I'm not sure what you are referring to that we agree on.

That although there was an apostasy, that didn't mean there were no true Christians alive after that apostasy took place.

 

[InChrist]

That although there was an apostasy, that didn't mean there were no true Christians alive after that apostasy took place.

Oh okay thank you for clarifying. My perspective is that said apostasy was not a Great Apostasy which eliminated the entire church since I believe the true church is not a visible organization or building though those things are at times called 'church", but rather the church or body of Christ is composed of believers wherever they are gathered.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh okay thank you for clarifying. My perspective is that said apostasy was not a Great Apostasy which eliminated the entire church since I believe the true church is not a visible organization or building though those things are at times called 'church", but rather the church or body of Christ is composed of believers wherever they are gathered.

Apparently you believe solely in what is often called "the invisible Church." I believe in both "the invisible Church" and "the visible Church." Everything Paul said about the impending apostasy leads to the conclusion that he was referring to the visible Church.

 

[zomg]

Hong - I'm interested to hear if you knew there are multiple accounts of Smith's First Vision. Here is the very first documented account, written 12 years later in Joseph Smith's journal:

"marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath thewise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of firelight above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could reioice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and but after many days"

Joseph Smith's Handwritten 1832 First Vision

It vastly differs from the account your referenced. Notice there is no evil presence and just one deity.

 

[InChrist]

Apparently you believe solely in what is often called "the invisible Church." I believe in both "the invisible Church" and "the visible Church." Everything Paul said about the impending apostasy leads to the conclusion that he was referring to the visible Church.

I remember a period in my life when I was earnestly searching for “the true church”. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church claims to be the true church, yet I had already experienced things in the Catholic Church which I felt convinced me otherwise. After a time I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, met my husband and we were married in the temple. The Mormon Church also claims to be the true church. Yet, again it was as if God was showing me things which were off base. We drifted awhile through various spiritual paths and then began getting involved with yet another church which claimed to be the true church. A pretty amazing event occurred, which I won’t go into, but which I believe clearly was God showing us that this church was not the true church. It was after this that I was waking up at night unable to sleep and earnestly asking God over and over, “where is the true church?’. I just wanted to find it.

One evening as my husband and I were trying to read and make sense of the Bible, he said, ‘I think maybe the church is simply made up of Christians throughout the world and not an organization”. I just didn’t want to quite accept that as I was still thinking there must be a true organized visible church. It wasn’t more than a couple of weeks later that we were both saved on the same day and I realized that that we were now part of the body of Christ and the true church. After this we went about finding a ‘church” to fellowship with other believers, but I have come to believe that any visible organization or group which claims to be the true church is a red flag warning of a false church.

 

[InChrist]

Everything Paul said about the impending apostasy leads to the conclusion that he was referring to the visible Church.

Yes, Paul's warnings did address apostasy in visible local fellowships or churches. Yet I believe apostasy is something individual people do when they turn from the faith, not the entire church since the church is made up of many people and fellowships of believers.

 

[Katzpur]

I remember a period in my life when I was earnestly searching for “the true church”. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church claims to be the true church, yet I had already experienced things in the Catholic Church which I felt convinced me otherwise. After a time I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, met my husband and we were married in the temple. The Mormon Church also claims to be the true church. Yet, again it was as if God was showing me things which were off base. We drifted awhile through various spiritual paths and then began getting involved with yet another church which claimed to be the true church. A pretty amazing event occurred, which I won’t go into, but which I believe clearly was God showing us that this church was not the true church. It was after this that I was waking up at night unable to sleep and earnestly asking God over and over, “where is the true church?’. I just wanted to find it.

One evening as my husband and I were trying to read and make sense of the Bible, he said, ‘I think maybe the church is simply made up of Christians throughout the world and not an organization”. I just didn’t want to quite accept that as I was still thinking there must be a true organized visible church. It wasn’t more than a couple of weeks later that we were both saved on the same day and I realized that that we were now part of the body of Christ and the true church. After this we went about finding a ‘church” to fellowship with other believers, but I have come to believe that any visible organization or group which claims to be the true church is a red flag warning of a false church.

Well you certainly are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, Paul's warnings did address apostasy in visible local fellowships or churches. Yet I believe apostasy is something individual people do when they turn from the faith, not the entire church since the church is made up of many people and fellowships of believers.

And if there is a lack of agreement between the "many people" as to what they should believe, what then? Or doesn't it matter?

 

[Pegg]

Clearly, if he was going to be the individual through whom original Christianity would be reestablished, the Adversary would have had a real motive for trying to thwart the plan. I can't imagine you'd disagree with that.

Actually, the "two shining spirits" were God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Here's the way I see it. If Satan wanted to make sure that Joseph's prayer went unanswered, he would have done exactly what he did. In that case, God would want to make sure that this didn't happen. He (God) certainly wouldn't want Satan to succeed in what he was doing. Ultimately, either God or Satan would prevail. So ultimately, it sounds as if what you are saying is that there is no conceivable way for Joseph Smith's statement of what happened to be true, because at the end of the day, Satan is the one who is in control.

The thing that arouses my suspicion is the fact that Joseph was involved in spiritism. That in itself is what has me scratching my head, why?

Because of this warning from Gods Word the bible:

Deut 18:10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire,+ anyone who employs divination,+ anyone practicing magic,+ anyone who looks for omens,+ a sorcerer,+11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium+ or a fortune-teller,+ or anyone who inquires of the dead.+12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.+

​

Do you really believe that God would condemn such a person, but then choose such a person to become one of his prophets? I find that hard to reconcile.

​