Jewish Messiah

[Rival]

I commonly read Christians posting on here saying something like: 'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc. So I ask the Christians now: why do you think the Jews expected and/or expect this? Could you cite any verses in the Tanakh to this effect? If the Jews were near uniformly expecting such a messiah this belief must be backed up with something. What is that something?

 

[John D. Brey]

I commonly read Christians posting on here saying something like: 'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc. So I ask the Christians now: why do you think the Jews expected and/or expect this? Could you cite any verses in the Tanakh to this effect? If the Jews were near uniformly expecting such a messiah this belief must be backed up with something. What is that something?

Why don't you first tell us what you think are the qualification and actionable traits of the Jewish Messiah? It would be nice to know what the "Christian" conceptualism is being juxtaposed against?



John

 

[shunyadragon]

I commonly read Christians posting on here saying something like: 'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc. So I ask the Christians now: why do you think the Jews expected and/or expect this? Could you cite any verses in the Tanakh to this effect? If the Jews were near uniformly expecting such a messiah this belief must be backed up with something. What is that something?

Its late, but I will post more on references, but simply te Hebrews equated the Messiah concept with Kingship to restore the Nation of Israel.

 

[Shaul]

Many Jews would object to the terminology of "messiah"(especially capitalized). The word messiah is a corruption of the Hebrew word "moshiach". The meaning of the word messiah has been co-opted so much with the Christian definition of it that it is unpalatable to many Jews. Jews use the word moschiach.

 

[Rival]

Many Jews would object to the terminology of "messiah"(especially capitalized). The word messiah is a corruption of the Hebrew word "moshiach". The meaning of the word messiah has been co-opted so much with the Christian definition of it that it is unpalatable to many Jews. Jews use the word moschiach.

I was a Noahide on here for 5 years and no Jew cared about this. I would write moshiach/maschiach but it means the same. I'm asking Christians what they think, anyway.

 

[1213]

I commonly read Christians posting on here saying something like: 'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc. So I ask the Christians now: why do you think the Jews expected and/or expect this? Could you cite any verses in the Tanakh to this effect? If the Jews were near uniformly expecting such a messiah this belief must be backed up with something. What is that something?

These seem to be one reason for the expectation:

And having gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked of them where the Christ was to be born. And they said to him, In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it has been written by the prophet, "And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, in no way are you least among the governors of Judah, for out of you shall come a Governor who shall shepherd My people Israel."
Matt. 2:4-6

And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you He shall come forth to Me to become Ruler in Israel; and His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.
Mic. 5:2

 

[Rival]

And having gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked of them where the Christ was to be born. And they said to him, In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it has been written by the prophet, "And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, in no way are you least among the governors of Judah, for out of you shall come a Governor who shall shepherd My people Israel."
Matt. 2:4-6

This isn't from the Tanakh.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This isn't from the Tanakh.

Neither is Rambam's 13 principles of faith, but ...

 

[Rival]

Neither is Rambam's 13 principles of faith, but ...

Both the Gospels and the 13 Principles were written after the fall of the Temple. Expectations and understandings may have long shifted in the years since this event. I'm looking for what Jews believed at the time of the 2nd Temple with regard to the messiah. The one thing Jews and Christians agree on is the Hebrew Bible so that's the source one ought to start with.

 

[dybmh]

Neither is Rambam's 13 principles of faith, but ...

Off-topic, but, It sure does come from Tanach. Are you still stuck on those poetic anthropomorphisms?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Off-topic, but, It sure does come from Tanach. Are you still stuck on those poetic anthropomorphisms?

Off topic (and mildly rude) but no matter ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Both the Gospels and the 13 Principles were written after the fall of the Temple. Expectations and understandings may have long shifted in the years since this event. I'm looking for what Jews believed at the time of the 2nd Temple with regard to the messiah. The one thing Jews and Christians agree on is the Hebrew Bible so that's the source one ought to start with.

Jeremiah 23:5

הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃
See, a time is coming—declares GOD —when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.

 

[Wandering Monk]

This isn't from the Tanakh.

Why does this matter? Are there no other Jewish sources that you consider valid?

 

[Flankerl]

Why does this matter? Are there no other Jewish sources that you consider valid?

Christian sources are by definition not Jewish.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Christian sources are by definition not Jewish.

Yet Christian concepts of Messiah are derived from Judaism. The Essenes had a concept of warrior and priestly messiahs prior to Jesus' day. Are the Dead Sea Scrolls useless in this messianic discussion?

 

[Rival]

Yet Christian concepts of Messiah are derived from Judaism. The Essenes had a concept of warrior and priestly messiahs prior to Jesus' day. Are the Dead Sea Scrolls useless in this messianic discussion?

Could you please not derail my thread? All I want to know is where Christians believe Jews derive their understanding of the Messiah and the best place to start is the Tanakh. Many Christians accept that the Jews were/are not expecting a Messiah who does the things Jesus did, but someone who would overthrow Rome and restore Israelite hegemony. I want to know why Christians believe this and why there are differences between the two messianic understandings.

 

[Flankerl]

Yet Christian concepts of Messiah are derived from Judaism

The word you are looking for is "stolen".

The Essenes had a concept of warrior and priestly messiahs prior to Jesus' day.

Good for them.
How are they doing again?

Are the Dead Sea Scrolls useless in this messianic discussion?

Yup pretty much.
All of the Messianic stuff existed prior to the discovery of these scrolls.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The word you are looking for is "stolen".


Good for them.
How are they doing again?


Yup pretty much.
All of the Messianic stuff existed prior to the discovery of these scrolls.

A bit testy, aren't you?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Its late, but I will post more on references, but simply te Hebrews equated the Messiah concept with Kingship to restore the Nation of Israel.

And what rival has asked is, Why would the Jews have such an expectation?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Many Jews would object to the terminology of "messiah"(especially capitalized). The word messiah is a corruption of the Hebrew word "moshiach". The meaning of the word messiah has been co-opted so much with the Christian definition of it that it is unpalatable to many Jews. Jews use the word moschiach.

Shaul: Jews do not really care about anglicizations of hebrew words. We commonly use Isaac for Yitzchak, etc. I don't really give a hoot if christians use the word messiah rather than moshiach.