Jewish Messiah

[IndigoChild5559]

Why does this matter? Are there no other Jewish sources that you consider valid?

The question was why did Jews in Jesus day have an idea that the Messiah would be a king who would redeem Israel. Thus, references are limited to what was considered canon AT THAT TIME. Matthew was not then, nor ever, considered Jewish canon. The Talmud came later in history. So yeah, we are limited to the Tanakh.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yet Christian concepts of Messiah are derived from Judaism.

No, they really aren't. Christians have a totally different idea of what the messiah will do than Jews.

Now, the question remains, where do you think JEWS get the idea of teh messiah being a king from?

 

[Shaul]

I was a Noahide on here for 5 years and no Jew cared about this. I would write moshiach/maschiach but it means the same. I'm asking Christians what they think, anyway.

I guess you never asked too many. Regardless, the topic is about how Christian think about Jewish expectations. So my comment was germane.

"The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept."

Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

 

[Shaul]

Shaul: Jews do not really care about anglicizations of hebrew words. We commonly use Isaac for Yitzchak, etc. I don't really give a hoot if christians use the word messiah rather than moshiach.

Not of themselves. But they have a vested interest when non-Jews discuss Jewish positions. Including Jewish positions on the moshiach ben David.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I guess you never asked too many. Regardless, the topic is about how Christian think about Jewish expectations. So my comment was germane.

Specifically, where do christians think Jews got our ideas that the messiah was to be a king?

 

[Rival]

I guess you never asked too many. Regardless, the topic is about how Christian think about Jewish expectations. So my comment was germane.

"The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept."

Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

I am aware of this. I have an extensive history with Judaism. I am not ignorant of this, please don't talk to me as though I am. Thank you.

 

[Shaul]

I am aware of this. I have an extensive history with Judaism. I am not ignorant of this, please don't talk to me as though I am. Thank you.

I won't if you don't post as if that were true. Since you say you were aware of this then you shouldn't have questioned why I brought it up.

 

[Rival]

I won't if you don't post as if that were true. Since you say you were aware of this then you shouldn't have questioned why I brought it up.

I am aware of this. My question is aimed at Christians. I know why Jews believe this. I argued against Christian concepts of Messiah for years using Jewish sources. I have spent hundreds of pounds on Jewish books and own commentaries by Ramban, Rashi and others. Again, please do not treat me as though I am ignorant. It is not very nice.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why does this matter? Are there no other Jewish sources that you consider valid?

It matters because the thread's author chose it as the topic of his thread. If it doesn't matter to you, wander elsewhere.

 

[Shaul]

Specifically, where do christians think Jews got our ideas that the messiah was to be a king?

Christians are not a monolith of opinion. This is a question for individual Christians to answer and it would be wrong to answer on their behalf. However based on personal experience I have found some generalizations. Christians that have not had much exposure to Jews, and are steeped in Christianity, usually believe that the "Christian" version of their messiah, as an atoning supra-human, is what Jews believe. (This is strange since their "New Testament" indicates that the Jews of Jesus' time were not expecting that. See Matthew 16, Mark 8 and Luke 9) Other Christians that are aware of the dichotomy between the Jewish understanding of the moschiach and the Christian "Messiah" usually attempt polemics to attempt proselytizing.

 

[Shaul]

I am aware of this. My question is aimed at Christians. I know why Jews believe this. I argued against Christian concepts of Messiah for years using Jewish sources. I have spent hundreds of pounds on Jewish books and own commentaries by Ramban, Rashi and others. Again, please do not treat me as though I am ignorant. It is not very nice.

Don't fault me because of your imprecision of posts.

 

[Rival]

Don't fault me because of your imprecision of posts.

What are you talking about?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Could you please not derail my thread? All I want to know is where Christians believe Jews derive their understanding of the Messiah and the best place to start is the Tanakh. Many Christians accept that the Jews were/are not expecting a Messiah who does the things Jesus did, but someone who would overthrow Rome and restore Israelite hegemony. I want to know why Christians believe this and why there are differences between the two messianic underst

No, they really aren't. Christians have a totally different idea of what the messiah will do than Jews.

Now, the question remains, where do you think JEWS get the idea of teh messiah being a king from?

David.

 

[dybmh]

'The Jews expected a warrior messiah who would be a king..' etc. etc.

Expected. Past tense.

Well, I think this is a really good question. As a modern person, my concept of Moshiach comes from Tanach. But I have access to the entire Tanach. It's kind of hard to imagine 1st Cent. Jews knowing Tanach in that way, or being educated the way I've been educated.

In the Gospels, if I recall, Jesus' rejection by the Jews was never, "You're not the Mochiach!" And Jesus only maybe-maybe claimed to be The Messiah 1 time in public and 1 time in private. Again, based on my memory of the story.

So it seems like, at least according to the Gospels, "Is or Is Not the Moshiach?" wasn't even a question. So I'm not sure how a claim is made about what was expected at that time.

However, the answer I think is going to be dIfferent if the Christian is claiming, "Hey you, modern person, you're expecting a warrior king, but it's not, because..."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

David.

Can you elbaorate

 

[King Phenomenon]

I’m glad Christianity broke away from Jewish tradition. It opened new doors and new possibilities.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Can you elbaorate

No.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No.

So, no comprehensible answer. Got it.

 

[1213]

This isn't from the Tanakh.

It is referring to Micah, which I think is in Tanakh. Is it not true?

And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you He shall come forth to Me to become Ruler in Israel; and His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.
Mic. 5:2

 

[shunyadragon]

And what rival has asked is, Why would the Jews have such an expectation?

“The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies” (Psalm 110:2)!