Jesus

[may]

..

There is only one God, and besides God there is no god.
The Bible is very clear on who Jesus is:

quote]
being in the image of God does not make Jesus the true God ,it makes him like God, yes i agree with you that there is only one true God and the bible tells us his name in PSALM 83;18 and the bible is also very clear on who Jesus is in various places in the bible .
Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

 

[wizanda]

Sorry May, John is not speaking from Yeshua it is an egotistical Pharisee representation of second hand evidence that contains to many "I Am Christ" and false contradicting testimonies....
Simon was named Stone (petros) by Yeshua, and a stone is laid before Joshua/Yeshua the high priest feet to judge the nations....so was Yeshua wrong or is Simon false and a stone that teaches faith in man?
Paul/Saul you should know better then to post any of his words, as almost every word he said can be overturned like clay...

 

[may]

Sorry May, John is not speaking from Yeshua it is an egotistical Pharisee representation of second hand evidence that contains to many "I Am Christ" and false contradicting testimonies....
Simon was named Stone (petros) by Yeshua, and a stone is laid before Joshua/Yeshua the high priest feet to judge the nations....so was Yeshua wrong or is Simon false and a stone that teaches faith in man?
Paul/Saul you should know better then to post any of his words, as almost every word he said can be overturned like clay...

All scripture is inspired of God

 

[wizanda]

All scripture is inspired of God

If it contradicts Christ teachings then that is Anti-Christ...

If it is by Pharisees then how can you be following Yeshua at the same time, when he asked not too go after them?...

 

[may]

If it contradicts Christ teachings then that is Anti-Christ...

If it is by Pharisees then how can you be following Yeshua at the same time, when he asked not too go after them?...

i am glad to say that the whole of the bible is in complete harmony .

 

[JayHawes]

..

There is only one God, and besides God there is no god.
The Bible is very clear on who Jesus is:

quote]
being in the image of God does not make Jesus the true God ,it makes him like God, yes i agree with you that there is only one true God and the bible tells us his name in PSALM 83;18 and the bible is also very clear on who Jesus is in various places in the bible .
Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

Jesus was inferiror to the Father in that he had given up his power and glory in heaven and became a mortal man.

Jesus is not just in the image of God Paul wrote:
Col 2:9For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Godhead is translated from the following:
[SIZE=+1]qeovthß [/SIZE]Theotes (theh-ot'-ace);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 2320

1. deity
   1. the state of being God, Godhead

Paul here teaches that Jesus is God in body form. This is consistant with the fact Jesus is called Emmanuel "God with us." Yes Jesus did say ""The Father is greater than I am" becaste the Father is the head. However "greater" does not demean Christ or make him inferior to God. Christ was subordiante to the Father in that he became man and fulfilled his will. But Jesus is not inferiror, the Apotle Paul teaches:


Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

"Also understand that the Jews clearly understood Jesus' words charging him with blasphemy becuase he made himself GOD, not a god (John 10:33).

 

[Katzpur]

The understanding of the early Church, as voiced so eloquently in the Nicene Creed, was that Jesus was begotten, not made (created). Their understanding was also that Jesus was begotten "God from God." The Church herself asserts that the Son is God, as the Father is God. Since the Bible is a construct of the Church, it must have been written with that particular concept in mind. Perhaps you're missing something in the translation...

I never know what to think when people refer to the Nicene Creed as coming out of the "early Church." Surely the first century Christians managed to do without this creed, as did some dozen or so generations that followed. Perhaps the writers of the Nicene Creed were the ones who were missing something in the translation.

 

[athanasius]

I never know what to think when people refer to the Nicene Creed as coming out of the "early Church." Surely the first century Christians managed to do without this creed, as did some dozen or so generations that followed. Perhaps the writers of the Nicene Creed were the ones who were missing something in the translation.

This has to deal with the understanding of Christian development of Dogma/doctrine. The 1st century church did not have this creed or council because it was busy running from persecution from the Romans(via the catecombs). Once Christianity became legal (via Constantine) historically the Church could finally deal with the important deeper issues of Christology, heresy and such. The Church now had time to meditate on the scripture and apostolic tradition given to them by the apostles and come together in council to decide. It could finally publically hold a council again and decide on these issues. We believe that all doctrine develops and the Holy Spirit used these councils to give us a fuller understanding of the already delivered deposit of faith(as found in scripture and tradition and guided by the magisterium).
I hope that thelps.

 

[athanasius]

. I don't believe the Bible to be the complete Word that God has given us - hence, I don't believe in Sola S.

You would make a great Catholic then. We welcome you home to discover us and historical Christianity.

 

[Katzpur]

The Church now had time to meditate on the scripture and apostolic tradition given to them by the apostles and come together in council to decide.

And what information did the Apostles leave with the Church that was incorporated into the Creeds? I'm speaking, incidentally, of information extraneous to
what was found in the scriptures.

 

[athanasius]

And what information did the Apostles leave with the Church that was incorporated into the Creeds? I'm speaking, incidentally, of information extraneous to
what was found in the scriptures.

The oral apostolic tradition of coarse of who Christ was and what he was and how the early tradition interpreted the scripures and wha the Lived tradition the fathers taught.

 

[JayHawes]

If it contradicts Christ teachings then that is Anti-Christ...

If it is by Pharisees then how can you be following Yeshua at the same time, when he asked not too go after them?...

Paul's teachings do not contradict the teachings of Christ.

 

[salam]

[…If God did not become Man, did He have a son? Since He is able to do all things, He should be able to have a son. However, this claim reduces God to the lowly status of His creation. Creatures procreate by giving birth to mini versions of themselves that later grow up and reproduce copies of themselves, and so on and so forth. Dogs have puppies, cats have kittens, cows have calves, and men have children. So, what does God have – a baby God? Gods must give birth to Gods. But, for God to have a son, there has to exist another God besides Him. It is not befitting for God to have a son as such an act equates Him with His creation.
Everything other than God comes into existence by the commandment of God, not that God becomes His creation or a part of God becomes creation. God does not become His creation nor does God give birth to creation. God is God, the Creator, and man and the contents of the universe are His creation. Although humans cannot grasp the concept of creation from nothing, that is exactly what God did and does. He alone creates from nothing, which is among the attributes that make Him unique and distinct from His creation. His act of creation is entirely different from that of human beings.
This was the essence of the message of all the true messengers and prophets of God sent to humanity – Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad – as well as those sent throughout the world whose names are now unknown to humanity - may God’s peace and blessings be on them all. Today, this precise message can only be found in the Quran; the last scripture revealed by God to humankind. The message remains loud and clear only in the Quran because it has remained unchanged since the time of its revelation, one thousand four hundred years ago, until today.
God states in the Quran for those who make Him like His creation or vice versa:
“…There is nothing similar to Him...” (Quran 42:11)
He also states for those who attributed to Him a son:
“But it is not suitable for Ar-Rahman (the Most Beneficent – God) that He should beget a child.” (Quran 19:92)
He further states for those who believe that He created the world from Himself:
“If He wishes anything to exist, He merely commands it: ‘Be’, and it is.” (Quran 36:82)
For the polytheists He states:
“…There was no other god along with Him, for if there were each would have taken away what he created and tried to overcome the other…” (Quran 23:91)
He asks the atheists:
“Did nothing create them or did they create themselves?” (Quran 52:35)
And in reference to Jesus and his mother, Mary, He confirmed their humanity by saying simply:
“…They both used to eat food…” (Quran 5:75)
The concept of God not becoming man is very important for every human being to grasp because it lies at the foundation of the difference between Islam and all other existing religions. All other religions have a distorted concept of God, to one degree or another. The most important idea which needs to be understood, is that God did not become man. God is unique; He alone deserves to be worshipped by His creation. To believe that a man is God or that a man became God and to worship that man is the greatest sin and the greatest evil that humans can do on this earth. This understanding is most important because it forms the foundation for salvation. There can be no salvation without it. However, this belief alone is not the key salvation. True, correct belief must be translated into practice, and not merely remain in the realm of knowledge, for it to become pure faith. A person has to live a righteous life based on the correct belief to attain salvation. Nevertheless, the starting point is, knowing who God is, knowing that God never became and will never become a human being….]

 

[wizanda]

Paul's teachings do not contradict the teachings of Christ.

Mat 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Gal 2:16
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Mat 5:17
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mar 11:22
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Luk 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
(16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(17) And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Speaking of can not serve -T-wo masters
(18) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

 

[may]

Paul's teachings do not contradict the teachings of Christ.

i agree with that

 

[wizanda]

i agree with that

Could you prove it though?

 

[JayHawes]

[…If God did not become Man, did He have a son? Since He is able to do all things, He should be able to have a son. However, this claim reduces God to the lowly status of His creation. Creatures procreate by giving birth to mini versions of themselves that later grow up and reproduce copies of themselves, and so on and so forth. Dogs have puppies, cats have kittens, cows have calves, and men have children. So, what does God have – a baby God? Gods must give birth to Gods. But, for God to have a son, there has to exist another God besides Him. It is not befitting for God to have a son as such an act equates Him with His creation.
Everything other than God comes into existence by the commandment of God, not that God becomes His creation or a part of God becomes creation. God does not become His creation nor does God give birth to creation. God is God, the Creator, and man and the contents of the universe are His creation. Although humans cannot grasp the concept of creation from nothing, that is exactly what God did and does. He alone creates from nothing, which is among the attributes that make Him unique and distinct from His creation. His act of creation is entirely different from that of human beings.
This was the essence of the message of all the true messengers and prophets of God sent to humanity – Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad – as well as those sent throughout the world whose names are now unknown to humanity - may God’s peace and blessings be on them all. Today, this precise message can only be found in the Quran; the last scripture revealed by God to humankind. The message remains loud and clear only in the Quran because it has remained unchanged since the time of its revelation, one thousand four hundred years ago, until today.
God states in the Quran for those who make Him like His creation or vice versa:
“…There is nothing similar to Him...” (Quran 42:11)
He also states for those who attributed to Him a son:
“But it is not suitable for Ar-Rahman (the Most Beneficent – God) that He should beget a child.” (Quran 19:92)
He further states for those who believe that He created the world from Himself:
“If He wishes anything to exist, He merely commands it: ‘Be’, and it is.” (Quran 36:82)
For the polytheists He states:
“…There was no other god along with Him, for if there were each would have taken away what he created and tried to overcome the other…” (Quran 23:91)
He asks the atheists:
“Did nothing create them or did they create themselves?” (Quran 52:35)
And in reference to Jesus and his mother, Mary, He confirmed their humanity by saying simply:
“…They both used to eat food…” (Quran 5:75)
The concept of God not becoming man is very important for every human being to grasp because it lies at the foundation of the difference between Islam and all other existing religions. All other religions have a distorted concept of God, to one degree or another. The most important idea which needs to be understood, is that God did not become man. God is unique; He alone deserves to be worshipped by His creation. To believe that a man is God or that a man became God and to worship that man is the greatest sin and the greatest evil that humans can do on this earth. This understanding is most important because it forms the foundation for salvation. There can be no salvation without it. However, this belief alone is not the key salvation. True, correct belief must be translated into practice, and not merely remain in the realm of knowledge, for it to become pure faith. A person has to live a righteous life based on the correct belief to attain salvation. Nevertheless, the starting point is, knowing who God is, knowing that God never became and will never become a human being….]

It depends on how you interpret "having a Son." God never lowered himself to a human state to produce Jesus, he was God at all times. Jesus was concieved of the Power of the Holy Ghost, whom himself is God. Jesus was not a baby God, Jesus was God long before he came to earth as Jesus, Jesus even appears in the OT in many forms.

Jesus was fully man, and fully God during his ministry- thus he never sinned.

All of the verses that you quote are very simliar to biblical scripture, they are not new. The NT existed about 500 years before the Quran and the OT existed thousands of years before the Quran.We have very very old Manuscripts of them, that are not corrupt....

Jesus was the only sinless man, and he was the only Man to be worshipped as God because he was God. Jesus was God in the flesh, who took on mankind's flesh so that he could die for us:

Php 2:6 To whom, though himself in the form of God, it did not seem that to take for oneself was to be like God;

Php 2:7But he made himself as nothing, taking the form of a servant, being made like men;

Php 2:8And being seen in form as a man, he took the lowest place, and let himself be put to death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9For this reason God has put him in the highest place and has given to him the name which is greater than every name;

Php 2:10So that at the name of Jesus every knee may be bent, of those in heaven and those on earth and those in the underworld,

Php 2:11And that every tongue may give witness that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Basic Englsih Version

 

[JayHawes]

Could you prove it though?

One must first provide evidence that his teachings actually do contradict Christ before anyone can actuallly provide evidence that it does not actually contradict Christ. I find it that many who say that certain teachings contradict either do not know scripture well....ignore certain sciprtures that reveal good info, and/or just dont understand it and think they do.

 

[JayHawes]

What was so spectacular about Jesus' life then if He was indeed God? Wouldn't we already expect God to never sin. Or wouldn't we expect God to live a perfect life? I just don't understand the use of God actually coming to earth..It really makes no sense. Men would already know that if God came to earth He would be perfect in every way. Isn't it better to believe in a perfect man that was perfect before the sight of God. A man so obedient to God that He was perfect and sinless. There is much more to learn from a story of an obedient Jesus rather than a God that was just being God as one would expect.

It matters not what is "better" to beleive, but rather what is true. That God came down as a man. And he came for a very good reason. You say it makes no sense for God to come down to earth. But God understood it, that it why Jesus said:

" For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

John 3:16.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Jesus came to be the perfect sacrifice. Able to reconcile man unto God, he became the Mediator.

Col 2:9For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead (being God) bodily (in human form).

Php 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.

 

[JayHawes]

Mat 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 5:17
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mar 11:22
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Luk 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
(16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(17) And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Speaking of can not serve -T-wo masters
(18) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

[/size]

If you see this as a contadiction then you dont really understand the nature of what Paul was talking about and what Jesus meant.