1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus' Final Words

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Rex, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. headhunter

    headhunter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4
    Ratings:
    +0
    In setting the final standard of judgement, Jesus then made universal history through the cross, in as much as to him, and from his perspective, relating himself to all people through all time and space, and therefore relating himself to Godself, - all sin and evil was made relative (what is at right angles to everything else?), leaving only goodness, mercy, and individual liberty, the only absolute.

    Understood in relation to the cross, all our efforts at sin then, are in vain, and produce nothing and no good fruit, or happiness.

    But through our relation TO the cross, our sins are carried away, continually and forever, filling us with goodness, truth, beauty, and mercy in their stead. Through Christ and in Christ we cannot help but become better people, either slowly or quickly.

    The cross then, is the ultimate universal standard - on the one hand a black hole of sin removal, and on the other a white hole of creation, or put simply, the tree of life, or to use another image, the wellspring of eternal life.

    The true meaning of the cross is absolutely and utterly profound! It is nothing less, and can be nothing less in the final analysis.

    If it happened, then it happened in a certain historical, cultural, legal and civilized context which gives it meaning, and if it has meaning, then by extention it has the FULL meaning and significance described above.

    Jesus was much more than a mere criminal put to death for political aims.

    Well, it was political, mind you. Just to the very nth degree.

    The cross of Jesus Christ.

    It is the end of evil, and the end of an otherwise eternal victimhood of generational, or relative, sin.

    If true, the earth then, since the cross was enacted here of all places, must have the highest calling of them all!

    "The first shall be the last, and the last first."

    "A city built on a hilltop cannot be hid! Neither should you hide your light under a bushel basket. No, instead you should bring out your light and place in on the lampstand for ALL in the house (everywhere), so that in seeing your good work, they will know that what's done is done in God."

    Woah!
     
  2. headhunter

    headhunter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4
    Ratings:
    +0
    The Cross of Jesus Christ then, from this perspective IS *the* universal standard of universal civilized progress, and represents the arrow of progress, UNIVERSALLY, all the way down to me, and you, as individual free will causal agents or historical participants of progressive change for the better, and from here, right here and now, all the way outwardly and upwardly, unto the most farthest reaching sphere of universal cause and effect. And that is ENTIRELY congruent with the findings of modern quantum physics, for which quantum reality has ONLY three possible intepretations.

    A) Superdeterminism - once something's happened, it could not have happened any other way than the way it happened. Revisionist history then has no meaning whatsoever, although we can learn from our mistakes.
    B) Transluminal Connections - whereby all things are connected in the eternally present moment, or in the eternal NOW, across all time and space.
    C) Multi-worlds Theory - The universe is an infinate tree of causation in an eternal recurrence of decision making. In other words each and every choice causes the entire universe to branch. Perhaps this is what it means, when Jesus said that all bad trees will be cut off and thrown onto the fire. We then, in ALL of our decision making must be careful then, not to become a bad tree bearing no fruit at all.

    Jesus Christ, who was, who is, and who is to come.

    What a friend we have in Jesus. True friends always remain the same.

    Jesus Christ.

    The same. Yesterday, to-day, and forever.

    Oh what a relief it is, to know this truth.

    Now perhaps it is time to start building our house on the rock of ages, so that when the rains come and the winds blow (historical chaos), it will hold firm, having a firm foundation.
     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Roman documents of the charge and cruixifiction of a man named Jesus who broke Jewish Temple Laws are on record I believe.
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Roman documents of the charge and cruixifiction of a man named Jesus who broke Jewish Temple Laws are on record I believe.
     
  5. harold e. rice

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Ratings:
    +8
    There is no historical records outside of the four Gospels and the bible anywhere about the life of Jesus.
     
  6. harold e. rice

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Ratings:
    +8

    Did you know that two of the Gospel writers Mark and Luke were not disciples? They never knew, saw, talked to or walked with the man called Jesus. Check it out in the bible. If these men actually wrote the Gospels named after them it could have only been hearsay or 2nd hand information. Read the bible and you?ll see who they were. Absolutely no observance of Jesus on the cross.
     
  7. harold e. rice

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Ratings:
    +8

    These are also last words that were said to have be spoken by Jesus on the cross.

    Mt 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
    saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say,
    My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    THIS VERSE WAS BORROWED FROM Psalms 22:1

    Ps 22:1
    To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of
    David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words
    of my roaring?


    Lu 23:46
    And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he
    said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
    and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    THIS VERSE WAS BORROWED FROM Psalms 31:5

    Ps 31:5
    Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast
    redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
     
  8. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Matthew 27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:34: And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    These two verses indicate a cry of defeat. I can't see how now Jesus would accuse God of deserting him. This idea contradicts too much scripture in the Bible. Especially considering that in John 16:32 Jesus said, "The Father is with me," Clearly Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 contridicts the rest of God's Word. Look closely at the verses...there are foreign words in the 2 verses that are not Greek words, they are Aramaic. The language spoken by Jesus. They show up in this scripture because the translators were not absolutely certain about their meaning. When the words were translated into Greek, the translators let the Aramaic words remain then added what they thought the Greek translation might be. Matthew 5:22, Mark 5:41, I Corinthians 16:22 are other verses where the translators have allowed the Aramaic words to remain.

    Accoring the ALL Aramaic sources the word lama is actually lmna Lmna is used as a declaration of "purpose" or "reason". The root of sabachthani is shbq. Shbq means "to keep" or "to reserve". The word "shbq" is used in other verses like Romans 11:4, I Kings 19:18, II Kings 10:11, Deuteronomy 3:3, Joshua 10:33, all translating "remaining"

    Eli, Eli, lmna shbqthni = My God, my God, for this purpose I was reserved.
    Prime example how translators have made grave errors. After all this was Jesus Christ entire purpose, the sacrificial lamb of God.
     
  9. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +0
    true blood, Is it possible that the translation should be "My God, My God, why do you keep away from me?" I have heard many theologians say that is at this moment that Our Lord accepted the guilt of the sins of all mankind. And Father God would not look upon the face of that sin, so He turned away. I have always had a problem with this because I have always believed that nothing can be hidden from God, especially not our sins but these were men of great learning and apparent wisdom from God. Please do not be offended but I do not know your credentials. Most people who come on here hide all aspects of their true identity.
     
  10. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36

    I have heard many theologians say the same thing. God forsook Jesus because Jesus became sin and God could not tolerate sin thus God left Jesus to die alone. However, personally, I won't accept that. Therefore I did study.

    John 16:32:"Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me" This statement suggests on that time of suffering Jesus said, "The Father is with me."
    John 10:30:"I and my Father are one." II Corinthians 5:19:"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..." John 8:29:"Jesus Christ always did those things that pleased God." Matthew 26:53:"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall give me more then 72,000 of angels?" Therefore if Jesus Christ was always doing the Father's will, he must have been doing His will while dying on the cross. If you truely research "Eli, Eli, lmna shbqthni it translates into "My God, my God for this purpose was I reserved." Then he uttered "It is finished." I guess for my understanding this makes more sense then a cry of defeat. After all this was his purpose and there are other mistranslated verses of scripture. There are even other sects that think Jesus was crying out for a reincarnated Elijah to come and rescue him from the cross because of corrupt religion. If a scripture doesn't flow smoothly with the rest of the scripture I will never believe it. But I'm not saying "I know it all" or I'm right and everyone else is wrong but for me it makes sense and I can be at rest with it with my own belief.
     
  11. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +0
    I do understand and I do agree that the other translation sounds like defeat and it was at this time when mankind was the biggest winner up to that point, and then Jesus rose. Score another for the Lord Jesus, Glory. I will pray about what you have said and I know that if the Holy Spirit gives me peace that you are right. I always try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling before God.
     
  12. zipo29

    zipo29 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    30
    Ratings:
    +0
    read some info from josephus he was a roman historian during that time he talks about a man (Jesus) being crucified and then being resurected. He states that it is probablly rubish but he does include it.
     
  13. quick

    quick Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Ratings:
    +0
    Matthew, Mark and John were all very close friends of Christ, John the closest. I doubt they wrote anything that long after Christ died. Where do you get your proof? Luke was not a personal friend, but a Greek doctor. Matthew, Mark and John were all Jewish. Matthew was Jewish tax collector.
     
  14. harold e. rice

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Ratings:
    +8
    Quick wrote;

    Matthew, Mark and John were all very close friends of Christ, John the closest. I doubt they wrote anything that long after Christ died. Where do you get your proof? Luke was not a personal friend, but a Greek doctor. Matthew, Mark and John were all Jewish. Matthew was Jewish tax collector.

    ==========================================================================

    Mark wasn't a disciple of Jesus but possibly of Peter. Mark never saw, or talked to Jesus. As a matter of fact, the Gospel named after Mark was the first one written and it was produced around AD 44. Matthews and Luke plagiarized their Gospels using Mark and was written even later. You can find this information if you look for it. It’s not a secret or hidden knowledge.
     
  15. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,748
    Ratings:
    +167
    The authorships of the gospels are disputed, up to the level that Mathew in all probability was not written by Matthew.
    Mark may have be written by Mark.
    That Luke was a doctor is not certain at all; his speaking of diseases can be compared with any modern man's ability to use words like "antibiotics" or "polio". He was no disciple. He was no eye (or ear) witness; he may have heard the stories from Paul, whom some say he accompanied on travels. But Luke seems to be unaware of Paul's letters. Whoever he might have been, he may have been a Gentile, and in that case and if he wrote the gospel, he would be the only non-Jewish writer of the Bible.
    Several scholars believe it likely that John was martyred two generations before "John" was written.

    I think that Matthew's name is the same as that of the Jewish priest Mattathias (1. Macc. 2)
    The name Johanan/Yochanan occurs more than a dozen times in the OT. That is close enough to Johannes (John in Latin and internationally) for me.
    I have no guess for Mark, but I don't doubt that there will be a Hebrew/Aramaic name for him a well.

    Funny things happen when Biblical names are transferred to English. Ya'qob becomes Jacob in Gen., but the brother of Jesus is called James.
     
  16. Christ Michael

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Messages:
    88
    Ratings:
    +1
    5. LAST HOUR ON THE CROSS


    Although it was early in the season for such a phenomenon, shortly after twelve o'clock the sky darkened by reason of the fine sand in the air. The people of Jerusalem knew that this meant the coming of one of those hot-wind sandstorms from the Arabian desert. Before one o'clock the sky was so dark the sun was hid, and the remainder of the crowd hastened back to the city. When the Master gave up his life shortly after this hour, less than thirty people were present, only the thirteen Roman soldiers and a group of about fifteen believers. These believers were all women except two, Jude, Jesus' brother, and John Zebedee, who returned to the scene just before the Master expired.

    Shortly after one o'clock, amidst the increasing darkness of the fierce sandstorm, Jesus began to fail in human consciousness. His last words of mercy, forgiveness, and admonition had been spoken. His last wish--concerning the care of his mother--had been expressed. During this hour of approaching death the human mind of Jesus resorted to the repetition of many passages in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly the Psalms. The last conscious thought of the human Jesus was concerned with the repetition in his mind of a portion of the Book of Psalms now known as the twentieth, twenty-first, and twenty-second Psalms. While his lips would often move, he was too weak to utter the words as these passages, which he so well knew by heart, would pass through his mind. Only a few times did those standing by catch some utterance, such as, "I know the Lord will save his anointed," "Your hand shall find out all my enemies," and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus did not for one moment entertain the slightest doubt that he had lived in accordance with the Father's will; and he never doubted that he was now laying down his life in the flesh in accordance with his Father's will. He did not feel that the Father had forsaken him; he was merely reciting in his vanishing consciousness many Scriptures, among them this twenty-second Psalm, which begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And this happened to be one of the three passages which were spoken with sufficient clearness to be heard by those standing by.

    The last request which the mortal Jesus made of his fellows was about half past one o'clock when, a second time, he said, "I thirst," and the same captain of the guard again moistened his lips with the same sponge wet in the sour wine, in those days commonly called vinegar.

    The sandstorm grew in intensity and the heavens increasingly darkened. Still the soldiers and the small group of believers stood by. The soldiers crouched near the cross, huddled together to protect themselves from the cutting sand. The mother of John and others watched from a distance where they were somewhat sheltered by an overhanging rock. When the Master finally breathed his last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris.

    It was just before three o'clock when Jesus, with a loud voice, cried out, "It is finished! Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." And when he had thus spoken, he bowed his head and gave up the life struggle. When the Roman centurion saw how Jesus died, he smote his breast and said: "This was indeed a righteous man; truly he must have been a Son of God." And from that hour he began to believe in Jesus.

    Jesus died royally--as he had lived. He freely admitted his kingship and remained master of the situation throughout the tragic day. He went willingly to his ignominious death, after he had provided for the safety of his chosen apostles. He wisely restrained Peter's trouble-making violence and provided that John might be near him right up to the end of his mortal existence. He revealed his true nature to the murderous Sanhedrin and reminded Pilate of the source of his sovereign authority as a Son of God. He started out to Golgotha bearing his own crossbeam and finished up his loving bestowal by handing over his spirit of mortal acquirement to the Paradise Father. After such a life--and at such a death--the Master could truly say, "It is finished."

    Because this was the preparation day for both the Passover and the Sabbath, the Jews did not want these bodies to be exposed on Golgotha. Therefore they went before Pilate asking that the legs of these three men be broken, that they be dispatched, so that they could be taken down from their crosses and cast into the criminal burial pits before sundown. When Pilate heard this request, he forthwith sent three soldiers to break the legs and dispatch Jesus and the two brigands.

    When these soldiers arrived at Golgotha, they did accordingly to the two thieves, but they found Jesus already dead, much to their surprise. However, in order to make sure of his death, one of the soldiers pierced his left side with his spear. Though it was common for the victims of crucifixion to linger alive upon the cross for even two or three days, the overwhelming emotional agony and the acute spiritual anguish of Jesus brought an end to his mortal life in the flesh in a little less than five and one-half hours.



    [from The Urantia Book]


    Enjoy
     
  17. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,748
    Ratings:
    +167
    Christ Michael,

    Could you please explain what your lengthy post contributes to the discussion? In my opinion, what is being discussed is if there were any witnesses who could give testimony as to which were the last words, and if it is possible that any such witnesses told others about it. I find nothing new in what you write.
     
  18. Christ Michael

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Messages:
    88
    Ratings:
    +1
    anders writes:



    The original post deals with what Jesus' last words on the cross were. I just gave you additional information as to who was present, at the time of his death.



    Cheers
     
  19. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,748
    Ratings:
    +167
    CM,

    you wrote

    "When the Master finally breathed his last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris."

    This would be very interesting, if you could prove it.

    Math. mentions nobody present at the cross at Jesus's death by name.
    Neither does Mark.
    Or Luke.
    The synoptics mention some people watching from a distance, but certainly not "at the foot of his cross."
    John mentions only "his mother, and ... the disciple ... whom he loved" plus two Marys.

    If you find no better proof than "an anthology of 196 'papers' indited [i.e., dictated] between 1928 and 1935 by superhuman personalities.... The humans into whose hands the papers were delivered are now deceased. The means by which the papers were materialized was unique and is unknown to any living person." (The Urantia Book), I refuse to believe a single word of what you write.
     
  20. Christ Michael

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Messages:
    88
    Ratings:
    +1
    anders writes:


    Don't lose any sleep over it !! I, personally, don't believe in "talking snakes and donkeys" but that doesn't stop me from believing in Jesus Christ. God bless !!!



    Cheers
     
Loading...