Jesus family tomb

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings. Some new information about the tomb of Jesus' family was discussed on TV this morning. Evidently there is a special on the Discovery Channel and, I am not sure, but believe it is on this Sunday, March 4, 2007 at 9:00pm. Seems the tomb materials were discovered back in the 80's but the Book of Phillip has given information about names that has helped identify the tomb as that of the family of Jesus. Anyone 'tuned' in to this?

 

[autonomous1one1]

No one interested? The individuals that produced the special think that they are on to something very important. Of course, there are always critics who think otherwise and maybe this is something known and dismissed within Christianity. ?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Not interested here. This stuff is just hype for a book. The tomb was found 20 years ago...

 

[kateyes]

This is also being discussed on the thread call "the ossuary of Jesus"

 

[autonomous1one1]

This is also being discussed on the thread call "the ossuary of Jesus"

Yes, thank you. That is exactly the same subject well along so no need to start this thread. I was thinking of a discussion among Christians and not a debate with atheists but in looking at that other thread I believe we will see some interesting viewpoints.

 

[Quiddity]

I've been reading up on it and the most impressive thing thus far is the statistic. There is a 600 to 1 chance that it's Jesus family. The number that they have Jesus tomb is even higher.

What I don't get is that the researchers keep talking about Yeshua and how it relates to proper Jewish burials. There was nothing proper about Christ's story and everything that followed, so why look for proper burials?

 

[robtex]

Here are some links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6397373.stm?lsf

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17561/mysterious-bones-of-jesus-joseph-and-mary

In the second link the first paragraph says qoute:

" Inside they found ossuaries, or boxes of bones, marked with the names of Jesus, Joseph and Mary."

This last link is the most detailed:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc.html?category=

two qoutes of interest from that link are

Five of the 10 discovered boxes in the Talpiot tomb were inscribed with names believed to be associated with key figures in the New Testament: Jesus, Mary, Matthew, Joseph and Mary Magdalene. A sixth inscription, written in Aramaic, translates to "Judah Son of Jesus."

and

Frank Moore Cross, a professor emeritus in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "The inscriptions are from the Herodian Period (which occurred from around 1 B.C. to 1 A.D.). The use of limestone ossuaries and the varied script styles are characteristic of that time."

 

[robtex]

I've been reading up on it and the most impressive thing thus far is the statistic. There is a 600 to 1 chance that it's Jesus family. The number that they have Jesus tomb is even higher.

here is what i found on that:

Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.
To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.
The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600.

source :

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc_02.html?category=animals&guid=20070225073000

 

[Quiddity]

here is what i found on that:

Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.
To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.
The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600.

source :

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc_02.html?category=animals&guid=20070225073000

Yeah, I downloaded that exact document as a PDF to my computer. I'm not entirely sure outside of the DNA what is different. The DNA recovered was that of Mary Magdalene and Yosef. I'm still trying to figure out how they connected the dots.

 

[autonomous1one1]

.........

Greetings Victor. Do you think the Church will take an official view on this discovery, or is it too insignificant and easily dismissed as Angellous indicates in the other thread?

I thought the film indicates something rare about names that the Gospel of Philip gave the key to unraveling. Any truth to that?

 

[robtex]

Greetings Victor. Do you think the Church will take an official view on this discovery, or is it too insignificant and easily dismissed as Angellous indicates in the other thread?

I thought the film indicates something rare about names that the Gospel of Philip gave the key to unraveling. Any truth to that?

Sorry to jump on Vic's question but I think if they do accept this idea they may re-emphasis the spirtual Jesus over the physical Jesus. If you open you bible to Acts chapter 9 versus 1-10 the book is very clear that Saul, on the road to Damascus is talking to a spirt Jesus. The emphasis may shift from physical Jesus back to spirtual Jesus.

A new issue may arise thought that traditionally the way to differentiate between the holy spirt and Jesus was flesh vs spritual energy ---which if Jesus the spirt is incorporated into their faith would blur that seperation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

here is what i found on that:

Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.
To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.
The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600.

source :

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc_02.html?category=animals&guid=20070225073000

The problem is this guy is not qualified to do this kind of study...

But Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics and mathematics at the University of Toronto,

The variables not considered are:

1) Most importantly: Many people had the same name back then. There could have been 200++ people in Jerusalem in the first century with the same names (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, etc) buried together. Added to this - the son would often carry the name of his father, and the daughter the mother, so all these people with the same name have children with the same name. This makes names on tombs rather useless.

2) These inscriptions could have been added at a relatively close date after the names were popularized among Christians. Tombs were an active place in ancient times - they could be added to persons' tombs that do not hold the bodies of the added name or it could be a person with a popular Christian name buried in the late first to early second century.

EDIT: To be frank, this book and its hype is targeted to people who don't know anything about ancient burial practices or other aspects of ancient culture. The claims are simply incredible and cannot stand any kind of critical scrutiny.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Sorry to jump on Vic's question but I think if they do accept this idea they may re-emphasis the spirtual Jesus over the physical Jesus. If you open you bible to Acts chapter 9 versus 1-10 the book is very clear that Saul, on the road to Damascus is talking to a spirt Jesus. The emphasis may shift from physical Jesus back to spirtual Jesus.

A new issue may arise thought that traditionally the way to differentiate between the holy spirt and Jesus was flesh vs spritual energy ---which if Jesus the spirt is incorporated into their faith would blur that seperation.

Hey Rob. I am sure you are right for many. From posts in the other thread on this subject, it seems that some Christians will not be impacted at all and others would be severely impacted, and some will never accept this discovery as real anyway. I am really just wondering where we will get the authoritative review of the discovery; that is, authoritative in the sense of being knowledgeable about the facts of the discovery and what they really mean.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hey Rob. I am sure you are right for many. From posts in the other thread on this subject, it seems that some Christians will not be impacted at all and others would be severely impacted, and some will never accept this discovery as real anyway. I am really just wondering where we will get the authoritative review of the discovery; that is, authoritative in the sense of being knowledgeable about the facts of the discovery and what they really mean.

Which would be unfortunate because the claims are baseless in the first place and hopelessly impossible to be linked to the historical Jesus, whom we know precious little about anyway.

 

[robtex]

hopelessly impossible to be linked to the historical Jesus, whom we know precious little about anyway.

interesting. maybe knowing little about him is what makes him precious to so many. If the ideas are poor in construction over time this will become exposed. In the meantime looking for historical and physical evidence seems harmless enough. The inquiry of such is a healthy thing community wise and if the results turn out to be unverifiable or inconconclusive, or just plain false, a humanity that took the time to look into the matter instead of having a "too senstative to investigate mentality" about them seems like a mentally healthier society.

"hopelessly impossible" to ever investigate the religion feels like a cop-out. Maybe the investgation is a good thing irregardless of the results it eventually yields because we as a society investigated it in the first place.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

interesting. maybe knowing little about him is what makes him precious to so many. If the ideas are poor in construction over time this will become exposed. In the meantime looking for historical and physical evidence seems harmless enough. The inquiry of such is a healthy thing community wise and if the results turn out to be unverifiable or inconconclusive, or just plain false, a humanity that took the time to look into the matter instead of having a "too senstative to investigate mentality" about them seems like a mentally healthier society.

"hopelessly impossible" to ever investigate the religion feels like a cop-out. Maybe the investgation is a good thing irregardless of the results it eventually yields because we as a society investigated it in the first place.

It's not hopelessly impossible to ever investigate the religion - but it is, in my opinion, to connect an ostuary of this type with this specific person. Its based on the commonality of names and burial practices and not on the religious nature of Jesus.

However, the religious nature of Jesus does complicate things, because his name and the name of his companions could turn up on graves that are not his, and there is a very long period of time for his followers and others to inscribe his name on it.

 

[arthra]

One thing that I've thought of is that since all these burial boxes or ossuaries were found in one place it would have to be I think a very prominent well off family to be able to do that and that doesn't square with the idea that the family of Jesus was more likely practically destitute

and another point that I read about was that it would be unlikely Jesus Who was executed by crucifixion and something of a "pariah" would have a clearly marked grave.

- Art

 

[autonomous1one1]

It's not hopelessly impossible to ever investigate the religion - but it is, in my opinion, to connect an ostuary of this type with this specific person. Its based on the commonality of names and burial practices and not on the religious nature of Jesus.

However, the religious nature of Jesus does complicate things, because his name and the name of his companions could turn up on graves that are not his, and there is a very long period of time for his followers and others to inscribe his name on it.

Greetings Angellous. I have a lot of questions about this, including probabilities of name changes versus original names, but I will not ask that you give me a lesson here. Wouldn't be fair to you. I will just watch the special and observe the reactions. I know that Christians are not asleep on this; have already seen three reactions on TV that throw it out as you do. I am sure a balanced view will come forward and that may very well be dismissal.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Greetings Angellous. I have a lot of questions about this, including probabilities of name changes versus original names, but I will not ask that you give me a lesson here. Wouldn't be fair to you. I will just watch the special and observe the reactions. I know that Christians are not asleep on this; have already seen three reactions on TV that throw it out as you do. I am sure a balanced view will come forward and that may very well be dismissal.

Ha! Burial chambers are quite numerous in Rome especially, and also in Jerusalem. It's where we get most of our inscriptions - the other sources being coins and monuments.

I'll see if I can reccommend an online source... I know scores of books...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Greetings Angellous. I have a lot of questions about this, including probabilities of name changes versus original names, but I will not ask that you give me a lesson here. Wouldn't be fair to you. I will just watch the special and observe the reactions. I know that Christians are not asleep on this; have already seen three reactions on TV that throw it out as you do. I am sure a balanced view will come forward and that may very well be dismissal.

Ha! Burial chambers are quite numerous in Rome especially, and also in Jerusalem. It's where we get most of our inscriptions - the other sources being coins and monuments.

I'll see if I can reccommend an online source... I know scores of books...