Jesus Christ: the greatest story ever told?

[Brian2]

It was most likely some kind of epileptic siezure.

If the story is true then the part about his healing by a Christian whom God had told about him is also true.
If the story is not true then there is no reason to make up excuses for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, iow just say it is a bunch of lies and be done with it,,,,,,,,,,,,,, this is what you say about the parts of the gospels you don't believe happened.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your son's name means 'God with us'. This is not an idle use of words!

In lsaiah 7:14, it is the young woman's son who is called lmmanuel.

To whom does this prophecy refer?

Sure because God IS with us. My son's name makes a statement about God, not about my son.

Isaiah 7:14 is about King Hezekiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes I know that, but I said I could find quotes in the Hebrew scriptures which are Messianic imo and which have the Messiah, the Son of God speaking. I was wanting to show that the Messiah is the Son of God and also existed before He became a man, since He is seen speaking in the Hebrew scriptures.

The problem is, Christians are absolutely notorious for yanking verses out of context, thus manufacturing so-called prophecies that are not really there. There are actually very few messianic prophecies, and Jesus did not fulfill them all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the story is true then the part about his healing by a Christian whom God had told about him is also true.
If the story is not true then there is no reason to make up excuses for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, iow just say it is a bunch of lies and be done with it,,,,,,,,,,,,,, this is what you say about the parts of the gospels you don't believe happened.

What? That scales fell off his eyes? I don't think so.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sure because God IS with us. My son's name makes a statement about God, not about my son.

Isaiah 7:14 is about King Hezekiah.

If the passage (lsaiah 7:14-16) was about King Hezekiah it would not say, 'For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land shall be forsaken of both her kings.'

Hezekiah was also a king in Judea, so how can he be the child in question?

 

[Redemptionsong]

"God with us" could mean many things..

Almighty God is closer to us than our jugular vein.
A person who has the Holy Spirit "dwelling in them" could be said to have God with them..

These literal readings of scripture only serve to mislead.
One needs knowledge of religion from more than one source .,. more than one "church" / sect, in order to understand more fully.

The passage should be read in context. It demonstrates that the Lord gives a sign in advance of the fulfilment! A young woman will give birth to a boy whose name will be 'God with us'.

To my understanding this is another way of saying 'the Christ' of God.

 

[Brian2]

"hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is ONE" not three in one.

Since you know that "echad" can mean a "compound one" the Shema does not disprove that God is a compound God as in the trinity.
The Shema can mean “The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.” or "Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone".
It certainly does not deny the trinity and the one God of the trinity does not deny the Shema.

 

[Redemptionsong]

ALL rabbis teach that all of the commandments can be grouped under either loving God or loving neighbor. Jesus was NOT original in this teaching.

I'm not saying that Jesus was original in his teaching on this issue. He did not intend to say something new, only to confirm that he knew and understood the commandments! He knew perfectly well that there was one God, not three!

 

[Brian2]

The problem is, Christians are absolutely notorious for yanking verses out of context, thus manufacturing so-called prophecies that are not really there. There are actually very few messianic prophecies, and Jesus did not fulfill them all.

It is true that the prophecies said to be Messianic by Christians is a much longer list than the Jews have.
I think Jesus did fulfill more of the Jewish list than Jews give Him credit for however and since He rose from the dead and so is still alive, sitting at the right hand of God, He is still bringing prophecies to fulfillment in this, the Messianic age.

 

[Brian2]

What? That scales fell off his eyes? I don't think so.

Acts 9:17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

It does not matter what it said about what happened, what you are saying is that you don't believe the story no matter what, because you are a Jew and Jews don't believe the New Testament.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the passage (lsaiah 7:14-16) was about King Hezekiah it would not say, 'For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land shall be forsaken of both her kings.'

Hezekiah was also a king in Judea, so how can he be the child in question?

He's not a king when he's just a child.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Since you know that "echad" can mean a "compound one" the Shema does not disprove that God is a compound God as in the trinity.
The Shema can mean “The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.” or "Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone".
It certainly does not deny the trinity and the one God of the trinity does not deny the Shema.

echad does not mean compound one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not saying that Jesus was original in his teaching on this issue. He did not intend to say something new, only to confirm that he knew and understood the commandments! He knew perfectly well that there was one God, not three!

Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE. Not three in one. sorry.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is true that the prophecies said to be Messianic by Christians is a much longer list than the Jews have.
I think Jesus did fulfill more of the Jewish list than Jews give Him credit for however and since He rose from the dead and so is still alive, sitting at the right hand of God, He is still bringing prophecies to fulfillment in this, the Messianic age.

Brian: the point is that the messiah will fulfill them all, and Jesus just didn't. If there were even one prophecy he didn't fulfill, it would mean he was not the messiah. I'll give you three:

1. The messiah will usher in an era of world wide peace. Jesus didn't.
2. The messiah will bring all Jews back to the land of Isreal. Jesus didn't.
3. The messiah will rule from jerusalem. Jesus didn't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Acts 9:17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

It does not matter what it said about what happened, what you are saying is that you don't believe the story no matter what, because you are a Jew and Jews don't believe the New Testament.

I do not accept what it says because it defies common sense.

 

[Brian2]

If the passage (lsaiah 7:14-16) was about King Hezekiah it would not say, 'For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land shall be forsaken of both her kings.'

Hezekiah was also a king in Judea, so how can he be the child in question?

It is interesting to read a variety of translations of those verses.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the boy knows enough to reject evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Emmanuel is associated with the child of Isa 9 and many Jews say that is Hezekiah, and translate the Isa 9:6 differently to Christian translations because it shows the divinity of the child, and that cannot be. The Jews also reject the Messianic nature of Isa 9:6,7 even though Hezekiah cannot fulfil it literally and the one who does this is the Messiah, who will reign of David's throne forever, and who of course comes from Galilee (Isa 9:1) (The numbering of the verses is different in the Tanakh also btw)
It is interesting that Jews these days don't see the Messiah as very important (or many don't anyway) Christians have the Messiah as the one who sits on the throne of David forever and Jews have the Messiah as just a man who comes and does things and dies like anyone else and say that David or Abraham or someone else will rule forever even though for Christians, we can point to various passages about the great everlasting ruler and say they are Messianic obviously, it is not so with the Jews.

 

[Brian2]

echad does not mean compound one.

I keep hearing different things about echad and it's meaning, both from Jews and Christians.
In what sense is 'echad' [one] used in the Shema?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

and translate the Isa 9:6 differently to Christian translations because it shows the divinity of the child, and that cannot be.

We translate it differently because unlike Christian translations which translate from the GREEK septuagint, we translate from the HEBREW Masoretic texts. IOW our translation is direct from the hebrew, while Christian tranlsations are "translations of a translation." It's kind of like making a copy of a copy, instead of the original.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I keep hearing different things about echad and it's meaning, both from Jews and Christians.
In what sense is 'echad' [one] used in the Shema?

"The word 'echad, "one," is used in the Jewish Scriptures in either a compound or absolute sense. In what sense is 'echad used in the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deuteronomy 6:4)?

Answer:
In such verses as Genesis 1:5: "And there was evening and there was morning, one day," and Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh," the term 'echad, "one," refers to a compound united one. However, 'echad often also means an absolute one. This is illustrated by such verses as 2 Samuel 13:30: "Absolom has slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left"; 2 Samuel 17:12: "And of all the men that are with him we will not leave so much as one"; Exodus 9:7: "There did not die of the cattle of Israel even one"; 2 Samuel 17:22: "There lacked not one of them that was not gone over the Jordan"; Ecclesiastes 4:8: There is one [that is alone], and he has not a second; yea, he has neither son nor brother." Clearly, the word "one" used in these verses means an absolute one and is synonymous with the word yachid, "the only one," "alone." It is in this sense, with even greater refinement, that 'echad is used in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Here, 'echad is used as a single, absolute, unqualified one. There is no mention of a triune god.
© Gerald Sigal"
In what sense is 'echad' [one] used in the Shema?

 

[joelr]

Is the story of Jesus Christ the greatest story ever told? I think so.

There are many better stories with far more legitimate sacrifices.

The story of God sending His only son to die for our immorality, in order to redeem our souls, is a touching one, isn't it?

No it's a ridiculous one.
First Jesus IS God in Christian theology so it's not really his son.
Second an infinite God of reality wouldn't be bound by limitations of "my only son" which is a human thing. The God of reality can have as many sons as he likes.
Also a God of all reality strangely needing a sacrifice is obviously leftover even worse archaic thinking where you actually killed animals and gave them to a deity.With money.

On the eleventh day Pagiel the son of Ocran, prince of the children of Asher, offered:

73 His offering was one silver charger, the weight whereof was an hundred and thirty shekels, one silver bowl of seventy shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary; both of them full of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering:

74 One golden spoon of ten shekels, full of incense:

75 One young bullock, one ram, one lamb of the first year, for a burnt offering:

76 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

77 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the.....

yes this is the same God.

Jesus talks a lot about forgiveness. He doesn't say to forgive people after they bring you a burnt rabbit. Somehow the God of reality cannot forgive his completely flawed Great Ape Mammals who are not smart in comparison without at least witnessing a murder?
In order to redeem our souls........uh, so that is a Greek story. They did it first. If you have to have murder forgiveness as the best story you have ever heard what about it's not even original?

Next, magic blood atonement sacrifice demanded by sky-God as only way to forgive flawed creation isn't even a good story never mind greatest.

In the story non-believers get sent to eternal fire. So much for freedom of religion and thought.

It assumes that we need redemption. Don't we all? Jesus Christ offers us this in the most selfless way.

That is not the most selfless way. He went to a heaven right after?
We may need redemption in some way. Not in the fictional way where a God won't let us into heaven because of sins. Who told you we need redemption to get into an afterlife?
Oh the same book that has the sacrifice, wow that's interesting. It's all in one book, like a self contained story. Or myth that has nothing to do with the real world.

So the Hellenistic Greek religions decided we needed redemption first and they moved into Israel in 327 BCE. I'm sure all the ancient Greek religions only had true things in their theology.
Why would they make stuff up?

More than two billion people believe in Christ as the son of God who died for us. It's a story too good not to be true. I find myself desiring to believe in the story too.

It is a story that has endured for millieneum and changed the lives of billions of people.

If it is truly just a story, what a great and powerful story it is![/QUOTE]


Well there are billions of people who feel the same about the Quran, is that true?

It doesn't make sense but the savior deity myth was very popular for a reason and there is a reason why it spread from Greek religion to many other cultures who were then Hellenized. The story isn't great but if you convince people there is a demigod who cares about you and can get you into an afterlife then it's going to be popular with people who don't realize it's fiction.

The story didn't "endure". It was created out of many versions by elite rulers and then made law and brutally enforced. It was also evangelized around the world before people had access to other ways of thinking, comparative religion, historicity, literary analysis, skeptical and rational thinking.