Jesus and the Last Supper

[John Martin]

I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message.
The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour. When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour. In this sense in Jesus Christ the love of God reached one hundred percent and the love of neighbour reached one hundred percent. In that sense he represents the fullness of Truth.No truth can go beyond that.
The Last Supper reveals this fundamental truth. it reveals the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God. They become sacred. This is the love of God. Then we need to give and receive this body and blood. Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God. This is the love of neighbour. In this sense human life becomes sacred and human relationships become sacred. Our life becomes the life of God and our actions become the actions.
This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings. this way of living also can be described as 'unfolding'. Jesus did not celebrate the Eucharist only at the Last Supper. His whole life, after his enlightenment, was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. He was unfolding his life. He did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish when people needed it. He changed water into wine when people needed it, he healed people when people needed it, he gave love and compassion whenever they are needed. So his whole life was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. In the Last Supper he showed his disciples the essence of his life and teaching and he asked them to do the same.
In the gospel of John we do not have the last Supper but the Washing of the Feet. it is exactly like the Eucharist. When a person realizes oneness with God( love of God) that person realizes that that everyone is one with God but not aware. That person servers others( love of neighbour),washing the feet, to realize their dignity and help others to realize that. The Last Supper reveals that purpose of our life is to love God one hundred percent and to love our neighbours one hundred percent.

I would appreciate if any one has any comments on it.

 

[Sculelos]

I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message.
The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour. When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour. In this sense in Jesus Christ the love of God reached one hundred percent and the love of neighbour reached one hundred percent. In that sense he represents the fullness of Truth.No truth can go beyond that.
The Last Supper reveals this fundamental truth. it reveals the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God. They become sacred. This is the love of God. Then we need to give and receive this body and blood. Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God. This is the love of neighbour. In this sense human life becomes sacred and human relationships become sacred. Our life becomes the life of God and our actions become the actions.
This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings. this way of living also can be described as 'unfolding'. Jesus did not celebrate the Eucharist only at the Last Supper. His whole life, after his enlightenment, was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. He was unfolding his life. He did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish when people needed it. He changed water into wine when people needed it, he healed people when people needed it, he gave love and compassion whenever they are needed. So his whole life was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. In the Last Supper he showed his disciples the essence of his life and teaching and he asked them to do the same.
In the gospel of John we do not have the last Supper but the Washing of the Feet. it is exactly like the Eucharist. When a person realizes oneness with God( love of God) that person realizes that that everyone is one with God but not aware. That person servers others( love of neighbour),washing the feet, to realize their dignity and help others to realize that. The Last Supper reveals that purpose of our life is to love God one hundred percent and to love our neighbours one hundred percent.

I would appreciate if any one has any comments on it.

:yes::clap::trampo::seesaw: :cheer::ko:

 

[John Martin]

:yes::clap::trampo::seesaw: :cheer::ko:

thank you Sculesos

 

[Oak of Justice]

Christ has said; "The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify the truth."

He says; "I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the surrounding citie because this is why I was sent."

These two verses say exactly why He was sent and He said to His followers; "As the Father sent me that is how I send you."

So in order to follow Him one must do what he did which is to spread the truth, the word of God. This is loving God and neighbor.

As the Lord says; "Speak the truth to one another"

 

[John Martin]

Christ has said; "The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify the truth."

He says; "I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the surrounding citie because this is why I was sent."

These two verses say exactly why He was sent and He said to His followers; "As the Father sent me that is how I send you."

So in order to follow Him one must do what he did which is to spread the truth, the word of God. This is loving God and neighbor.

As the Lord says; "Speak the truth to one another"

yes I do agree with you.

Proclaiming the good news is proclaiming the eternal truth that we are all in God and ultimately we are one with God. Truth is our oneness with God(love of God)and our oneness with one another( love of neighbour).
Jesus came into the world and experienced this truth and bear witness to it by his death on the cross. He commissioned his disciples to experience this truth, share it with others and bear witness to it.

 

[Sculelos]

To be joined as Joint-Heirs with Jesus Christ to the Kingdom of God means we will be together with him as long as we follow in his footsteps.

 

[sojourner]

To be joined as Joint-Heirs with Jesus Christ to the Kingdom of God means we will be together with him as long as we follow in his footsteps.

the minute we step out of line, however...

 

[Sculelos]

the minute we step out of line, however...

He will try to get us back. However if we kick and scream and keep fighting to get away eventually he is going to let us go.

 

[John 5:46]

I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left…… I would appreciate if any one has any comments on it.

I agree with you that this last meal He ate with His disciples is very important! In fact, this meal is SO important that it actually has several names, some of which you may or may not have heard of......

Sometimes it is known as The Feast of Freedom. By eating this meal we celebrate and remember our freedom given to us by the blood of the lamb from a bondage so harsh it would have killed us.
Another name it is known by is the Feast of Redemption. Again, by the Blood of the Lamb we have been redeemed from a bondage so harsh it would have killed us. But the most common name of this meal that our Savior ate (and instructed us to partake of) is Passover.

 

[sojourner]

He will try to get us back. However if we kick and scream and keep fighting to get away eventually he is going to let us go.

That's patently NOT what the bible teaches. The woman searches for the coin until it is found. The shepherd leaves the 99 and searches for the lost sheep until it is found. The father waits at the door until the prodigal returns. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.

 

[sojourner]

I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message.
The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour. When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour. In this sense in Jesus Christ the love of God reached one hundred percent and the love of neighbour reached one hundred percent. In that sense he represents the fullness of Truth.No truth can go beyond that.
The Last Supper reveals this fundamental truth. it reveals the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God. They become sacred. This is the love of God. Then we need to give and receive this body and blood. Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God. This is the love of neighbour. In this sense human life becomes sacred and human relationships become sacred. Our life becomes the life of God and our actions become the actions.
This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings. this way of living also can be described as 'unfolding'. Jesus did not celebrate the Eucharist only at the Last Supper. His whole life, after his enlightenment, was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. He was unfolding his life. He did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish when people needed it. He changed water into wine when people needed it, he healed people when people needed it, he gave love and compassion whenever they are needed. So his whole life was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. In the Last Supper he showed his disciples the essence of his life and teaching and he asked them to do the same.
In the gospel of John we do not have the last Supper but the Washing of the Feet. it is exactly like the Eucharist. When a person realizes oneness with God( love of God) that person realizes that that everyone is one with God but not aware. That person servers others( love of neighbour),washing the feet, to realize their dignity and help others to realize that. The Last Supper reveals that purpose of our life is to love God one hundred percent and to love our neighbours one hundred percent.

I would appreciate if any one has any comments on it.

The Eucharist has been the central act of Christian Worship since the beginning.

 

[Green Kepi]

That's patently NOT what the bible teaches. The woman searches for the coin until it is found. The shepherd leaves the 99 and searches for the lost sheep until it is found. The father waits at the door until the prodigal returns. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.

You are correct in that 'nothing' can stop God from loving us; however, your “eternal security” is misleading.


Yes, God says in Romans 8:38-39 - "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".


But...Psalm 81:12 - still is still applicable to us today..."So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices".


Yes...God is a God of patience. He is longsuffering. He strives with men and calls them to repentance. He withholds His righteous judgment for a long season.


But finally there comes a time when this judgment is withheld no more.

 

[Knight of Albion]

I agree with you that this last meal He ate with His disciples is very important! In fact, this meal is SO important that it actually has several names, some of which you may or may not have heard of......

Sometimes it is known as The Feast of Freedom. By eating this meal we celebrate and remember our freedom given to us by the blood of the lamb from a bondage so harsh it would have killed us.
Another name it is known by is the Feast of Redemption. Again, by the Blood of the Lamb we have been redeemed from a bondage so harsh it would have killed us. But the most common name of this meal that our Savior ate (and instructed us to partake of) is Passover.

'The blood of the lamb' which some interpret as literally being the blood of a lamb!
Animal sacrifice - do not devil worshippers do the same?!

God is not a monster. The wise man understands that the only sacrifice God has ever required of us is not a blood sacrifice, but a love sacrifice i.e. Service :flower2:

Jesus saved the real lamb and gave himself - the Lamb of God - as the sacrifice, to redeem mankind from the sin against Love.

 

[sojourner]

But...Psalm 81:12 - still is still applicable to us today..."So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices".

That's not a statement of condemnation or "giving up." It's a statement of respect and holding loosely. God doesn't force our compliance. God "gives us up" to our own devices. We have to come to God of our own volition, IOW.

Yes...God is a God of patience. He is longsuffering. He strives with men and calls them to repentance. He withholds His righteous judgment for a long season.

The phrase you're looking for is "until they are found.

But finally there comes a time when this judgment is withheld no more.

We are our own critics. Our base desires are juxtaposed against God's perfection. The Christian faith and hope is that, one day, all will return to God of their own volition. Until such time, the Father waits patiently at the door...

 

[Skwim]

I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message.
The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour. When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour. In this sense in Jesus Christ the love of God reached one hundred percent and the love of neighbour reached one hundred percent. In that sense he represents the fullness of Truth.No truth can go beyond that.
The Last Supper reveals this fundamental truth. it reveals the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God. They become sacred. This is the love of God. Then we need to give and receive this body and blood. Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God. This is the love of neighbour. In this sense human life becomes sacred and human relationships become sacred. Our life becomes the life of God and our actions become the actions.
This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings. this way of living also can be described as 'unfolding'. Jesus did not celebrate the Eucharist only at the Last Supper. His whole life, after his enlightenment, was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. He was unfolding his life. He did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish when people needed it. He changed water into wine when people needed it, he healed people when people needed it, he gave love and compassion whenever they are needed. So his whole life was a continuous Eucharistic celebration. In the Last Supper he showed his disciples the essence of his life and teaching and he asked them to do the same.
In the gospel of John we do not have the last Supper but the Washing of the Feet. it is exactly like the Eucharist. When a person realizes oneness with God( love of God) that person realizes that that everyone is one with God but not aware. That person servers others( love of neighbour),washing the feet, to realize their dignity and help others to realize that. The Last Supper reveals that purpose of our life is to love God one hundred percent and to love our neighbours one hundred percent.

I would appreciate if any one has any comments on it.

In as much as you're looking for comments:

"I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message."

I only see two rituals: the last supper and the washing of feet. What is the third?

"The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour."

How do you know?

"When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God."

How is this revealed?

"When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour."

Again, in what manner is this revelatory?

"The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God."

What is a " body and blood God"? The bread and wine became god?

"They become sacred."

The bread and wine I assume.

"This is the love of God."

So god's love is making bread and wine sacred?

"Then we need to give and receive this body and blood."

Why?

"Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God."

So if I receive fish and chips from others it is, or becomes, "the body and blood of God."?

"Our life becomes the life of God"

So god no longer has a life of his own, but that of ours? How very odd.

" and our actions become the actions."

Probably want to rephrase that.

"This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings."

Well, as I see it, what's of primary necessity to us human beings is food, water, shelter, sex, mental health, and physical health, all of which is nothing new at all.

 

[bippy123]

The Eucharist has been the central act of Christian Worship since the beginning.

Correct Sojourner, it is bother biblical and historical. In fact ignatius in his letters spoke about the docetist heresy and how contrary their practices and beliefs were to the mind if God, such as not praying , not helping the poor and not believing that the eucharist is the flesh of our lord and savior. He also goes on to describe what a valid eucharist is. Ignatius was small light weight in Chritsian history as he was a student of John the apostle who was ordained as the third bishop of Antioch . He called the, heretics not just for these other practices but because they didnt believe that the eucharist was the actual flesh of our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Quotations on the Holy Eucharist

Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God ... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, 110 A.D.:
Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.


St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadephians, 4:1, 110 A.D.:
Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever ye do, ye may do it after God.

 

[bippy123]

In as much as you're looking for comments:

"I am thinking that the last supper is the most important ritual that Jesus has left. Similar to the Last Supper is the washing of the feet. These three rituals reveal the essential truth of Jesus' life and his essential message."

I only see two rituals: the last supper and the washing of feet. What is the third?

"The experience of Jesus was the one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent of love of neighbour."

How do you know?

"When Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one' he revealed one hundred percent of love of God."

How is this revealed?

"When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me, he revealed one hundred percent love of neighbour."

Again, in what manner is this revelatory?

"The bread and wine represent our human consciousness. They are raised to the level of divine so that they become body and blood God."

What is a " body and blood God"? The bread and wine became god?

"They become sacred."

The bread and wine I assume.

"This is the love of God."

So god's love is making bread and wine sacred?

"Then we need to give and receive this body and blood."

Why?

"Whatever we give to others is the body and blood of God and whatever we receive from others is the body and blood of God."

So if I receive fish and chips from others it is, or becomes, "the body and blood of God."?

"Our life becomes the life of God"

So god no longer has a life of his own, but that of ours? How very odd.

" and our actions become the actions."

Probably want to rephrase that.

"This is the primary vocation of human beings when God said 'be fruitful and multiply'. This fruitfulness and multiplication is not limited to the physical multiplication of children. It is to multiply what is necessary to human beings."

Well, as I see it, what's of primary necessity to us human beings is food, water, shelter, sex, mental health, and physical health, all of which is nothing new at all.

The eucharist shows the sacrificial nature of Christ, but ignatius specifically talks about what makes a valid eucharist and that is a eucharist performed only by the bishop or someone under the bishop.

To truly understand this you would need to understand the process of ordination and what it means biblically to be ordained. This is one of the most misunderstood concepts in Christianity today simply because many don't teach about it.

When judas died how did they elect Mathias to take his place as one of the twelve. When Timothy was given the power of ordination he was to,d to use it wisely. What was this power and why was he told to use it wisely? Ordination was used throughout the old and New Testament to transfer authority .
In the Old Testament it was done with anointing with oils. In the New Testament it was done by the breathing upon and laying hands upon .

This is why when someone claims to be an ordained minister the first question that pops into my mind is who ordained you? Did that ordination come from a successive chain that can be traced all the way back to Christ and the 12 apostles?

This is usually when the minister gets a blank look on his face and changes the subject

 

[Kenny]

The eucharist shows the sacrificial nature of Christ, but ignatius specifically talks about what makes a valid eucharist and that is a eucharist performed only by the bishop or someone under the bishop.

To truly understand this you would need to understand the process of ordination and what it means biblically to be ordained. This is one of the most misunderstood concepts in Christianity today simply because many don't teach about it.

When judas died how did they elect Mathias to take his place as one of the twelve. When Timothy was given the power of ordination he was to,d to use it wisely. What was this power and why was he told to use it wisely? Ordination was used throughout the old and New Testament to transfer authority .
In the Old Testament it was done with anointing with oils. In the New Testament it was done by the breathing upon and laying hands upon .

This is why when someone claims to be an ordained minister the first question that pops into my mind is who ordained you? Did that ordination come from a successive chain that can be traced all the way back to Christ and the 12 apostles?

This is usually when the minister gets a blank look on his face and changes the subject

May I disagree? The first supper (that Jesus observed and was observing) was declared and enacted by Moses when Israel was leaving Egypt. The whole of the supper, at that moment, represented the work of Jesus Christ and the freedom that He was bringing to all who believed.

The whole of the supper was done by each family or, if a neighbor couldn't afford a lamb, they were to share it with that neighbor. None were ordained… they were ordinary people who believed Moses. Ignatius, in this case, created a man made tradition at the most or, at the lease, reinforced a man made tradition. Every family should not wait until the go to a church to remember the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ by the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the fruit of the vine. We should constantly remind our children what the act represents.

 

[bippy123]

May I disagree? The first supper (that Jesus observed and was observing) was declared and enacted by Moses when Israel was leaving Egypt. The whole of the supper, at that moment, represented the work of Jesus Christ and the freedom that He was bringing to all who believed.

The whole of the supper was done by each family or, if a neighbor couldn't afford a lamb, they were to share it with that neighbor. None were ordained… they were ordinary people who believed Moses. Ignatius, in this case, created a man made tradition at the most or, at the lease, reinforced a man made tradition. Every family should not wait until the go to a church to remember the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ by the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the fruit of the vine. We should constantly remind our children what the act represents.

You may disagree , and you may offer an opinion but it doesn't fit in with what Jesus said in John and what the earliest Christians like the students of the apostles were taught to believe.

In John when Jesus said take this and eat of it , the koine greek word john used for to eat is Trogo. Trogo means to literally chew and gnaw on something and throughout the bible the word trogo was never used to denote anything but a literal gnawing and chewing on something , and this was exactly what ignatius said about it in his letters in 110ad.

This is why reading the bible in only English won't get you the full meaning of these verses.


I doubt the apostle John would teach his student ignatius a figurative meaning of those verses, ordain him as bishop of Antioch and then ignatius would lie and teach a literal interpretation of them.

Robert Sungenis explains the meaning of trogo perfectly here, and that is why it was believed in the first 1500 years of Christianity.

John 6:54-58, and the Meaning of the Verb “to Eat” Flesh

Contrary to Vine, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in either koine or classical Greek. "trogo" (= "I eat," present indicative) is used six times in various verb forms in the New Testament:

Matt. 24:38
John 6:54, 56, 57, 58
John 13:18

As a preliminary matter, the main issue is not whether "trogo" can refer to something other than munching or chewing, but whether "trogo" is ever used in a non-physical sense. The meaning in the above passages concerns only the physical act of eating, which distinguishes the meaning from being merely symbolic, as is true of its counterpart "phago" which is sometimes used symbolically (cf., John 4:32; 1 Cor. 10:3). In fact, there is no symbolic usage of "trogo" in the New Testament or in classical literature, and "trogo" is not used in the LXX. In classical literature, according to Liddell and Scott, "trogo" referred mainly to biting into a piece of fruit or vegetable and eating it. Of the two, "phago" is the more general, since it can refer to physical or spiritual eating, but there are other reasons I will state below. Vine tries to turn "trogo" in Matt 24:38 and John 13:18 into metaphors by claiming that the physical eating is merely representative of the social scene, but this is illegitimate, since that is not how a true metaphor is defined. The ante-deluvian people were literally "eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage" right up until Noah entered the ark, since the ark door was shut on the very day it started raining; and Judas did share an intimate meal with Jesus right before he betrayed him. In fact, as I will show below, the social context of Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18 is only made possible by the fact that "trogo" is taken in its literal sense.


Notice also that "trogon" in John 6:54 and 6:58 is a present participle, which refers to an ongoing eating, whereas the aorist indicative of "phago" in 6:58, which describes the eating of the manna, refers to a past, discontinued event. In fact, all the uses of "trogo" in John 6 are present participles, which means that the eating of Jesus must be continual.

The majority of the early church fathers (the earliest Christians) believed in the literal presence of Christ in the eucharist, as I plainly showed by the very early quote of ignatius in 110 ad.

Ill take the word of the man who was personally taught by the apostle john over much later accounts of the 1500's as ignatius knew John personally, as ignatius was clear about what the eucharist is. And he didnt write it as a new teaching, he was writing in a way in which this was common knowledge to his fellow Christians.

Would u listen to a preacher in 2013 who was disconnected from the apostles by almost 2000 years or would u trust the word of the student of the apostles who heard the apostles interpretatiin straight from the lips of the apostles?

Ill take the word of the student of the apostles.

 

[Kenny]

You may disagree , and you may offer an opinion but it doesn't fit in with what Jesus said in John and what the earliest Christians like the students of the apostles were taught to believe.

In John when Jesus said take this and eat of it , the koine greek word john used for to eat is Trogo. Trogo means to literally chew and gnaw on something and throughout the bible the word trogo was never used to denote anything but a literal gnawing and chewing on something , and this was exactly what ignatius said about it in his letters in 110ad.

This is why reading the bible in only English won't get you the full meaning of these verses.

I agree that reading the English version isn't sufficient and that the study of the Greek/Hebrew is necessary for understanding. The last point shows that indeed in is not always physical. But first a couple of other points.

Yet there is still "interpretation" that one must deal with. He took bread and said "eat" for this is my body. The issue you are referring to is obviously "this is my body". But the "eat" is referring to the bread which must be gnawed on. To say that "eat" is referring to his body is an interpretation as it is directly talking about the "bread" and not the body.

Thus one must understand what happened to the bread to understand what happened to his body. It was completely tortured to an unrecognizable for. It is what the bread represented.

Then you have John 4:31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying , Master, eat . 32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Which is the same "eat" but it isn't referring to gnawing and chewing on anything physical.

Here the word "eat" is about souls and certainly was not physical.

I doubt the apostle John would teach his student ignatius a figurative meaning of those verses, ordain him as bishop of Antioch and then ignatius would lie and teach a literal interpretation of them.

I certainly have seen people who are taught by spiritual teachers and seen the very student twist and change what is said.

What I do know is that Jesus was enacting the supper that was being enacted in every home and thus was not meant to be only for bishops to administer.

Robert Sungenis explains the meaning of trogo perfectly here, and that is why it was believed in the first 1500 years of Christianity.



Contrary to Vine, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in either koine or classical Greek. "trogo" (= "I eat," present indicative) is used six times in various verb forms in the New Testament:

Matt. 24:38
John 6:54, 56, 57, 58
John 13:18


As a preliminary matter, the main issue is not whether "trogo" can refer to something other than munching or chewing, but whether "trogo" is ever used in a non-physical sense.

I would say not one or the other but both in as much as Jesus used the same word metaphorically in the story of the woman at the well

The meaning in the above passages concerns only the physical act of eating, which distinguishes the meaning from being merely symbolic, as is true of its counterpart "phago" which is sometimes used symbolically (cf., John 4:32; 1 Cor. 10:3). In fact, there is no symbolic usage of "trogo" in the New Testament or in classical literature, and "trogo" is not used in the LXX. In classical literature, according to Liddell and Scott, "trogo" referred mainly to biting into a piece of fruit or vegetable and eating it. Of the two, "phago" is the more general, since it can refer to physical or spiritual eating, but there are other reasons I will state below. Vine tries to turn "trogo" in Matt 24:38 and John 13:18 into metaphors by claiming that the physical eating is merely representative of the social scene, but this is illegitimate, since that is not how a true metaphor is defined. The ante-deluvian people were literally "eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage" right up until Noah entered the ark, since the ark door was shut on the very day it started raining; and Judas did share an intimate meal with Jesus right before he betrayed him. In fact, as I will show below, the social context of Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18 is only made possible by the fact that "trogo" is taken in its literal sense.

I will continue to read. But needless to say that I already showed that there is an instance of it not being in the literal sense.

Notice also that "trogon" in John 6:54 and 6:58 is a present participle, which refers to an ongoing eating, whereas the aorist indicative of "phago" in 6:58, which describes the eating of the manna, refers to a past, discontinued event. In fact, all the uses of "trogo" in John 6 are present participles, which means that the eating of Jesus must be continual.

The majority of the early church fathers (the earliest Christians) believed in the literal presence of Christ in the eucharist, as I plainly showed by the very early quote of ignatius in 110 ad.

Ill take the word of the man who was personally taught by the apostle john over much later accounts of the 1500's as ignatius knew John personally, as ignatius was clear about what the eucharist is. And he didnt write it as a new teaching, he was writing in a way in which this was common knowledge to his fellow Christians.

Would u listen to a preacher in 2013 who was disconnected from the apostles by almost 2000 years or would u trust the word of the student of the apostles who heard the apostles interpretatiin straight from the lips of the apostles?

Ill take the word of the student of the apostles.

To cut to the chase, you now have the problem that Jesus was actually enacting the atonement and the crucifixion even before he was crucified--a problem in itself.

It would also, if taken literally, would create a second problem that being "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." signifying that it isn't only the blood but also the cup.

Paul mentioned that we are one loaf/one body thus there is symbolism mentioned throughout. Even the "eucharist" was not mentioned… it was ONE loaf and not individually created.

I think that this will always be a point of discussion with great points on both sides… but John very clearly quoted Jesus in saying "Whosever believeth in me will not perish but have everlasting life". no mention of the eucharist.