Jesus and circumcision

[Shaul]

Matthew 16
"He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times."

The problem is that you seek the sign of the flesh.And since you seek the sign of the flesh , none other will be given except the sign of the prophet Jonah as Matthew 12:39 states.

But there is also the Sign of the Spirit

Galatians 5:13-26
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

Galatians 5:13 “For, brethren, ye have been called…”: Translation, Meaning

Galatians 5:13 King James Version (KJV) with a word-for-word translation and meaning from the original Greek Scriptures, its context and search popularity level.

www.quotescosmos.com

flesh-σαρκί
Flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e., (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such)

You can see how this passage devides the Law in
-The Law of the flesh
-The Law of The Spirit


This is vague

Jesus did it

John 1:40-42
"One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, ‘We have found the Messiah.’ He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, ‘You are Simon son of John. You shall be called Cephas (which means Peter/Rock)."

Simon Peter is a compelling case study for The Path. There is great insight to be gained about the Christian life by observing and learning from the life of Simon Peter. What is most compelling is the transformation that took place in Simon’s life as a result of following Jesus.

The passage above tells how Simon’s journey began. When he first met with his teacher,Jesus looked at Simon and called him by name. Jesus simply said, 'You are Simon son of John.' This is Jesus telling Simon 'I know you. I know everything about you. Everything.' Jesus looked into the heart of Simon and saw Simon’s strengths and weaknesses. He saw his hopes and fears. His goals and motivations. Jesus saw the good stuff in Simon’s life, the bad stuff, and everything in between.

Then Jesus did an amazing thing. He changed Simon’s name. 'Today you are Simon,' Jesus said, 'but someday you will be called Peter. You will be called a rock.'

To know the heart you have to engage in relationship with someone.You have to get to know them so you can learn their heart.

That Is furtherly explained in Matthew 22:

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'

Love your neighbor as yourself

Yourself applies to the first and greatest commandment

Love
↙ ⬇ ↘
heart-mind-soul

​

So now Law of the flesh is disqualified.

Wrong. First of all, I'm not "seeking" anything. If someone has been circumcised that is an outward sign for all, not me. Secondly, you (and the NT) are conflating a sign and a wonder (or miracle). While in Greek the term may be overloaded, that isn't the case in Hebrew. "Sign" and "wonder" are different things and serve entirely different purposes. Thirdly, it is Torah which requires those males that commit to the Law to take upon themselves the outward sign. That requirement is an everlasting one. "This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring." Torah requires it, not me. Fourth, Torah says that its commandment apply forever. Not "forever until blah, blah, blah", but forever period.

 

[Dimi95]

I have no idea why you think that is relevant. Belief is not necessary for circumcision. It is simply a sign that the boy child is being brought into the covenant, which is his by birthright. I suspect that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, taking the Protestant notion that baptism necessitates belief, and trying to impose that onto circumcision.

I am glad that you mentioned birthright

John 1:12-13
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



Baptism is gift , circumcision is request.

Baptism
Matthew 28:16-20
"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Circumcision
Genesis 17
"Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

The root of the word 'wə·niḵ·rə·ṯāh' (cut off) has many meanings.

It is not pointed as eliminated or killed.
It has many options.

 

[Dimi95]

Wrong. First of all, I'm not "seeking" anything. If someone has been circumcised that is an outward sign for all, not me. Secondly, you (and the NT) are conflating a sign and a wonder (or miracle). While in Greek the term may be overloaded, that isn't the case in Hebrew. "Sign" and "wonder" are different things and serve entirely different purposes. Thirdly, it is Torah which requires those males that commit to the Law to take upon themselves the outward sign. That requirement is an everlasting one. "This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring." Torah requires it, not me. Fourth, Torah says that its commandment apply forever. Not "forever until blah, blah, blah", but forever period.

Let's see what Torah says

Torah
TAV is the first letter in Torah.
The word TAV means 'impression' or 'mark'.
TAV alludes to the three essential services of the soul:
-teshuvah which means repentance
-tefillah which means prayer
-Torah which means Law od God

All three of these words in Hebrew begin with the letter TAV.
TAV represents truth.
The letter TAV begins the word tikkun (redemption).

If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Genesis you will get the spelling of TORAH
If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Exodus you will get also the spelling of TORAH

If you skip Leviticus and go to Numbers,you go every 49 letters and you will get TORAH spelled backwards!
If you go to Deuterenomy every 49 letters you will also get TORAH spelled backwards!

Why?
They are both pointing at Leviticus
In Leviticus in every 7 letters you will get the spelling of YAHWEH - Y-H-V-H(I am that I Am)
Every 7 letters - the entire book of Leviticus!
The book of Leviticus shows that it would take the sacriface of the perfect Lamb - Jesus Christ to atone our sins.

It is sad for me that you cannot see how powerfull are the OT and the NT Together.

No need to push further , take care and God bless you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, no. A covenant is an agreement. Agreements require consent. As I said a moment ago, babies can't consent to anything. No consent, no covenant.

That's not the way this works. The original "consent" was given by Abraham. After that, participation in the covenant was automatic for all those born into the People of Israel. Let's say someone is born a Jew and chooses not to practice Judaism. Technically, they are still bound by the covenant, whether they want to be or not.

The Christian claim is that it can be seen by God and that's all that matters.

Signs are given by God to *us*, not the other way around.

 

[Shaul]

Let's see what Torah says

Torah
TAV is the first letter in Torah.
The word TAV means 'impression' or 'mark'.
TAV alludes to the three essential services of the soul:
-teshuvah which means repentance
-tefillah which means prayer
-Torah which means Law od God

All three of these words in Hebrew begin with the letter TAV.
TAV represents truth.
The letter TAV begins the word tikkun (redemption).

If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Genesis you will get the spelling of TORAH
If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Exodus you will get also the spelling of TORAH

If you skip Leviticus and go to Numbers,you go every 49 letters and you will get TORAH spelled backwards!
If you go to Deuterenomy every 49 letters you will also get TORAH spelled backwards!

Why?
They are both pointing at Leviticus
In Leviticus in every 7 letters you will get the spelling of YAHWEH - Y-H-V-H(I am that I Am)
Every 7 letters - the entire book of Leviticus!
The book of Leviticus shows that it would take the sacriface of the perfect Lamb - Jesus Christ to atone our sins.

It is sad for me that you cannot see how powerfull are the OT and the NT Together.

No need to push further , take care and God bless you.

I'll tell you what is truly sad. What is truly sad is that you would presume to instruct a Jew about his own language when it is clear you don't understand it. You read some source with some rudimentary facts about gematria and kabbalah and posting some snippets proves your gravitas. It doesn't. Then you append a non sequitur to it. No, the Jewish scriptures, the TaNaKh (not the "Old Testament") is powerful on its own and the Christian New Testament adds no power to it whatsoever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's not the way this works. The original "consent" was given by Abraham. After that, participation in the covenant was automatic for all those born into the People of Israel.

If you don't agree to something, you haven't made an agreement. This is how agreements work; it's almost a tautology.

An "automatic covenant" is a contradiction in terms.

Let's say someone is born a Jew and chooses not to practice Judaism. Technically, they are still bound by the covenant, whether they want to be or not.

You may try to enforce rules on someone else and you may claim that you have authority over them to do so, but this doesn't mean that the person has entered into any covenant.

Signs are given by God to *us*, not the other way around.

Not sure how that's supposed to be a response to my point.

 

[Dimi95]

I'll tell you what is truly sad. What is truly sad is that you would presume to instruct a Jew about his own language when it is clear you don't understand it. You read some source with some rudimentary facts about gematria and kabbalah and posting some snippets proves your gravitas. It doesn't. Then you append a non sequitur to it. No, the Jewish scriptures, the TaNaKh (not the "Old Testament") is powerful on its own and the Christian New Testament adds no power to it whatsoever.

I have no problem to call it Tanakh
I do not answer the Law of the flesh which is also dismissed here:

Malachi
"And you will know that I have sent you this warning so that my covenant with Levi may continue,” says the Lord Almighty. 'My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name."

nacheth(reverent)
to go down, descend

Strong's Hebrew: 5181. נָחַת (nacheth) -- to go down, descend

I see it very strange to be offended on facts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am simply taking Christian words at face value. They have the onus for defending them.

I am not a Christian but I was one. And I can see why @Shaul is confused. When Jesus came back he seems to think that he had a perfect body. But according to John 20 25 Jesus was both Holey and Holy after the crucifixion. Why would his foreskin have grown back when nothing else did?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

An "automatic covenant" is a contradiction in terms.

This is a huge assumption on your part and is incorrect. In some instances a covenant can be inherited. In Genesis 17 it says "This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you and thy seed after you — every male child among you shall be circumcised. " No where in there does it stipulate that the circumcision is to be done only on those who agree to it. On the contrary, it says EVERY male child. The covenant here is not only made between God and Abraham, but with all his unborn descendants, even though they are not present to consent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As to Jesus's circumcision we have proof!!! There are holy relics of his circumcision. As many as eighteen different ones at the same time. That is a lot of "proof". No wonder he was so popular with the women of the street:

According to Farley, "Depending on what you read, there were eight, twelve, fourteen, or even 18 different holy foreskins in various European towns during the Middle Ages."[8] In addition to the Holy Foreskin of Rome (later Calcata), other claimants included the Cathedral of Le Puy-en-Velay, Santiago de Compostela, the city of Antwerp, Coulombs in the diocese of Chartres, as well as Chartres itself, and churches in Besançon, Metz, Hildesheim, Charroux.[11] Conques, Langres, Fécamp, and two in Auvergne.

Holy Prepuce - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a huge assumption on your part and is incorrect. In some instances a covenant can be inherited. In Genesis 17 it says "This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you and thy seed after you — every male child among you shall be circumcised. " No where in there does it stipulate that the circumcision is to be done only on those who agree to it. On the contrary, it says EVERY male child. The covenant here is not only made between God and Abraham, but with all his unborn descendants, even though they are not present to consent.

That's not a covenant, regardless of what word your Bible uses. Again: a covenant is a solemn agreement. You can't enter into an agreement when you don't have the capacity to agree to anything.

For everyone but Abraham, what you're calling a "covenant" is a rule or a law.

 

[Shaul]

I have no problem to call it Tanakh
I do not answer the Law of the flesh which is also dismissed here:

Malachi
"And you will know that I have sent you this warning so that my covenant with Levi may continue,” says the Lord Almighty. 'My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name."

nacheth(reverent)
to go down, descend

Strong's Hebrew: 5181. נָחַת (nacheth) -- to go down, descend

I see it very strange to be offended on facts.

You aren't stating facts. You are also abusing terminology. There is no "Law of the flesh". If by that you meant circumcision then that certainly isn't dismissed by the quotation from Malachi. TaNaKh is clear that the commandment for Abraham and his male descendants to be circumcised is eternal and can never be "dismissed". Sorry if that offends your theology. I fully understand that the commandment of circumcision is "inconvenient" for you. Too bad. It comes from HaShem.

 

[Dimi95]

You aren't stating facts. You are also abusing terminology. There is no "Law of the flesh". If by that you meant circumcision then that certainly isn't dismissed by the quotation from Malachi.

First you mentioned the everlasting covenant with Abraham , and now you reject the sayings in Malachi.
It says that the covenant was with Levi!
Funny thing is how this is connected with the Book of Leviticus

TaNaKh is clear that the commandment for Abraham and his male descendants to be circumcised is eternal and can never be "dismissed".

It states :
"Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So , can you please explain to me what does it mean 'cut off' for you as a Jew?

Because i just see that you want to get out of this circle without any reasonable answer to my points.

Sorry if that offends your theology. I fully understand that the commandment of circumcision is "inconvenient" for you. Too bad. It comes from HaShem.

I do not get emotional when people are talking in some sense against Christian theology.
You have the right to defend your belief , your values and your laws just as i have.

God has given us the same right to say yes or no , just as he gaved you regardless of the age , sex , ethnicity , belief system etc..

Can you agree on this with me , and when not , why not ?

 

[InChrist]

According to the Christian New Testament Jesus was circumcised in accordance with the Torah commandments. It also says that anyone that is circumcised is bound to keep all the Law. So here's the question. Is the risen, resurrected Jesus circumcised? If he is, he is bound to keep the Law. If he is not then he has become ineligible to be the moshiach. Which is it?

Jesus HAS kept the law while He lived on earth in the flesh. He fulfilled the law (Matthew 5:17-18). Christ is the culmination of the law… For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Romans 10:4).

 

[Shaul]

First you mentioned the everlasting covenant with Abraham , and now you reject the sayings in Malachi.

Um, no, I didn't do that. I simply state, quite correctly, that you are reading something into Malachi that isn't there.

It says that the covenant was with Levi!

Yes, because it was. But that doesn't mean it was solely with him and not with him and his descendants. Which it is. The Christian New Testament agrees with that too.

Funny thing is how this is connected with the Book of Leviticus
It states :
"Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So , can you please explain to me what does it mean 'cut off' for you as a Jew?

Sure, no problem. It means that the person "cut off" loses certain privileges a Jew in good standing would have until the shortcoming is eliminated. For example such a person could not participate in religious ceremonies.

Because i just see that you want to get out of this circle without any reasonable answer to my points.

You haven't produced anything I need to "get out of". So, yeah.

I do not get emotional when people are talking in some sense against Christian theology.
You have the right to defend your belief , your values and your laws just as i have.

God has given us the same right to say yes or no , just as he gaved you regardless of the age , sex , ethnicity , belief system etc..

Can you agree on this with me , and when not , why not ?

I don't look upon it as my defending Torah. Torah is from above and can defend itself. I am simply trying to be a witness to what it says. Furthermore, I have no obligation to correct others in their beliefs. I am not under some "Great Commission" obligation to convert the world from its erroneous beliefs. If you want to believe in some peculiar belief that's your business.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's not a covenant, regardless of what word your Bible uses. Again: a covenant is a solemn agreement. You can't enter into an agreement when you don't have the capacity to agree to anything.

For everyone but Abraham, what you're calling a "covenant" is a rule or a law.

You know what, if you want to disregard the Bible, and develop your own idea of what a covenant is, more power to you. As a Jew, I go by how the word is used in the Torah, and as I showed you, God very clearly made a covenant not only with Abraham, but with all his descendants. It quite specifically instructs to circumcise all males in his household, regardless of age, and says nothing about any consent.

I'm pretty much done here. If you want to have the last word, go for it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It states :
"Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So , can you please explain to me what does it mean 'cut off' for you as a Jew?

Any Jewish male who voluntarily remains uncircumcised, unless there is a serious health reason for it, is subject to kareth, being cut off. It means that while they are still technically a Jew, their soul will be extinguished rather than have a share in the world to come. This is the Orthodox position. Reform Jews believe obeying the law is a voluntary thing, so I would assume they take a different stance.

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus HAS kept the law while He lived on earth in the flesh. He fulfilled the law (Matthew 5:17-18). Christ is the culmination of the law

The law in this context is Torah, which is teaching. It's fulfilment is knowledge.

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 1:16

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:20
-> Psalm 69, 109

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26
-> Psalm 69, 109 and Psalm 35

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

 

[Ebionite]

If you don't agree to something, you haven't made an agreement. This is how agreements work; it's almost a tautology.

Silence is implicit consent.

 

[1213]

If Jesus must keep the Law then he must have his servants follow it too. But in Romans 6 we read, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." and in chapter 7, "we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." If Jesus is still bound by the Law then his servants cannot simultaneously be released from it.

A new covenant was made through Jesus. In this new covenant God's law is written in to persons heart.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the cov-enant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did-n't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen,{TR reads "neighbor" instead of "fellow citizen"} Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the great-est of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Heb. 8:8-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)
Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fa-thers;
Deut. 30:6-9
He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, "All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.
Matt. 26:27-28

When that happens, person is not under the law anymore. And that is because then person wants to live freely according to the law, not because he is forced to do so. Person who obeys the law only because he has to do so is under the law. Person who does it voluntarily is not under it. It does not mean that the law is not valid or good.