Jesus 2nd Advent

[Marco19]

Hello,

i asked this question long time ago in the Christianity DIR,
so now want to get a JW respond.

Is there any verse in the Tanakh/OT/Hebrew Bible where explicitly mentioned about the second coming of Jesus? (please don't include the NT)

Thanks in advance

 

[Pegg]

Hello,

i asked this question long time ago in the Christianity DIR,
so now want to get a JW respond.

Is there any verse in the Tanakh/OT/Hebrew Bible where explicitly mentioned about the second coming of Jesus? (please don't include the NT)

Thanks in advance

Hi marco,

The answer is indirectly, yes.

the hebrew scriptures show two separate, and very different, phases of the Messiahs appearances. The prophet Isaiah shows the Messiah in two ways: as a 'suffering servant' ...as someone in a lowly state who is rejected and killed, but also as a powerful god holding a superior position of rulership over all nations:

As the suffering servant:
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? 2 And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. ...But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. ...7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering;...For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. 9 And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. ...he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose

And as the powerful god:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace


The prophet Daniel shows the Messiah as a powerful heavenly being who is given the rulership over mankind:
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin


When you think about it, you cannot be born as a man and exist as a powerful heavenly being at the same time. Either you have to come as a heavenly being first, then be changed into a man....or you have to come as a man first and then be changed into a heavenly being.

we know in Jesus case that he certainly came as a man, was born of the tribe of Judah as prophesied, he was despised and killed by his fellow countrymen and according to his apostles he was raised up in the form of a spirit after his death.

 

[kjw47]

Hi marco,

The answer is indirectly, yes.

the hebrew scriptures show two separate, and very different, phases of the Messiahs appearances. The prophet Isaiah shows the Messiah in two ways: as a 'suffering servant' ...as someone in a lowly state who is rejected and killed, but also as a powerful god holding a superior position of rulership over all nations:

As the suffering servant:
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? 2 And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. ...But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. ...7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering;...For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. 9 And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. ...he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose

And as the powerful god:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace


The prophet Daniel shows the Messiah as a powerful heavenly being who is given the rulership over mankind:
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin


When you think about it, you cannot be born as a man and exist as a powerful heavenly being at the same time. Either you have to come as a heavenly being first, then be changed into a man....or you have to come as a man first and then be changed into a heavenly being.

we know in Jesus case that he certainly came as a man, was born of the tribe of Judah as prophesied, he was despised and killed by his fellow countrymen and according to his apostles he was raised up in the form of a spirit after his death.

Nicely said Pegg.

 

[Marco19]

Thank you Pegg,

Actually, i still can't understand how comes that this important event wasn't mentioned clearly and explicitly.

How do you understand the fact that all His life was already prophesied and fulfilled (if you check Mankind's search for God p245), but Nothing at all about the second advent?

your quotes from Isaiah are not giving any clear answer, even more i can see it as the same person with the same event but looking at it from different aspects/perspectives.

But may be the verse from Daniel is a bit confusing (7:13), because it talks about a son of man, not saying the one who came and lived or already incarnated or had a physical body or resurrected.
i hope i could make it clear what i mean, because the idea of son of man can refer to any future body/person, not specifically to Messiah.
i'm still wondering if you have any verse which is direct/explicit to the point.

Any thoughts?

 

[Pegg]

Thank you Pegg,

Actually, i still can't understand how comes that this important event wasn't mentioned clearly and explicitly.

When the promise was first made to Abraham, very little information was given. All Abraham knew was that one of his descendents would become the ruler of all the nations. That promise was given to Abraham even before he had any children...so he was not at all clear as to how such a promise would be fulfilled...especially considering he and his wife was very old when he received that promise.

gradually over time a little more information was revealed, then later a little more. These were all small clues, but the actual identity of the messiah was still far from known.
His identity would not be known until his actual arrival...then people would have to observe him and come to a determination if it was the messiah or not.

Those small clues would lead some to conclude that Jesus was truly the messiah, but others did not believe it was him.
In some way it separated those with faith in Gods word and those without. Perhaps that was Gods plan all along.

How do you understand the fact that all His life was already prophesied and fulfilled (if you check Mankind's search for God p245), but Nothing at all about the second advent?

the prophecies about the 'son of man' (a term which Jesus applied to himself) appearing before the throne of God in heaven is exactly that...its a description of the 2nd coming. In the first instance he appears as a man, in the 2nd he appears as a spiritual being beside Gods throne.

your quotes from Isaiah are not giving any clear answer, even more i can see it as the same person with the same event but looking at it from different aspects/perspectives.

But may be the verse from Daniel is a bit confusing (7:13), because it talks about a son of man, not saying the one who came and lived or already incarnated or had a physical body or resurrected.

this is why you need the NT. The writings of Jesus apostles are a continuation to the hebrew scriptures. They are an explanation of the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. Jesus explained that he would die and be resurrected to heaven...that he would appear before God on behalf of mankind

this is all explained in the greek scriptures.

i hope i could make it clear what i mean, because the idea of son of man can refer to any future body/person, not specifically to Messiah.
i'm still wondering if you have any verse which is direct/explicit to the point.

Any thoughts?

Jesus applied the term 'Son of Man' to himself thus identifying himself as the 'Son of Man'
Mark 2:10 But in order for YOU men to know that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins upon the earth,”—he said to the paralytic: 11 “I say to you, Get up, pick up your cot, and go to your home.”

He also spoke about his role as the 'Son of Man'... it is the term used by Daniel when he saw the vision of that one enter heaven to appear before the throne of God. Jesus expanded on this
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This parallels Daniels vision:
Dan 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin

i hope this helps.

 

[Marco19]

i hope this helps.

Yes, it does.
Thanks indeed