Islam: when is a person considered a Muslim?

[Meow Mix]

When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

 

[Meow Mix]

Also for instance consider this scenario: say a girl is born to Muslim parents. As she ages, she isn't really sure whether the religion is for her, she might go along with it because she's expected to perhaps (this happens a lot where I live, where young people are raised in Christianity and eventually leave it in their teens when they begin to explore their independence).

So would a young woman that chooses not to wear hijab be considered something along the lines of an apostate, something worse than a non-Muslim not wearing hijab, just because her parents are Muslims? Does it affect how much choice she has in the matter in a Muslim society to be born to Muslim parents, de jure or de facto?

 

[Shakeel]

Every child is born a Muslim, in the state of fitrah; in his natural state.

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The mother of every person gives him birth according to his true nature. It is subsequently his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. Had his parents been Muslim he would have also remained a Muslim. Every person to whom his mother gives birth (has two aspects of his life) ; when his mother gives birth Satan strikes him but it was not the case with Mary and her son (Jesus Christ)."

Someone who has reached puberty is accountable so his apostasy is valid.(according to some scholars a child's apostasy may be considered valid too, but I don't know if the punishment can be applied.)

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet said: "The pen has been lifted from three: From the sleeper until he wakes up, from the minor until he grows up, and from the insane until he comes back to his senses or recovers."'

Being an apostate means one is no longer in the fold of Islam and if his apostasy is brought in front of the law and proven and there are no factors that would affect the judgement, he would be executed.

"It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”'

Not wearing hijab is a sin, but it does not make one an apostate.

Something worse than a non-Muslim not wearing hijab? Non-Muslims don't need to wear hijab. There is no sin after disbelief.

Does it affect how much choice she has in the matter in a Muslim society to be born to Muslim parents, de jure or de facto?

In what matter?

 

[Meow Mix]

Every child is born a Muslim, in the state of fitrah; in his natural state.

Someone who has reached puberty is accountable so his apostasy is valid.(according to some scholars a child's apostasy may be considered valid too, but I don't know if the punishment can be applied.)

Being an apostate means one is no longer in the fold of Islam and if his apostasy is brought in front of the law and proven and there are no factors that would affect the judgement, he would be executed.

So, someone born to non-Muslim parents that reaches puberty is not killed as an apostate for deciding Islam is not for them.

But a child born to Muslim parents that reaches puberty is killed as an apostate for deciding the same.

Correct?

This is what I was asking when I said, "Does it affect how much choice she has in the matter in a Muslim society to be born to Muslim parents?"

So if a person is born to Muslim parents, they must be able to make this decision with mortal consequences at puberty and not a moment after? But a person born to non-Muslims, they have the rest of their adult lives to decide whether they want to be Muslims or not?

 

[paarsurrey]

When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim.
Till an individual becomes an adult, he/she is considered a Muslim. Of course if one becomes an adult and is not satisfied with the basic tenets of Islam( belief in one-ness of G-d and the messenger-ship of Muhammad), there is no point in keeping such a person within Islam, as Islam is in the heart of a person. There is no question of apostasy here , as I understand. Right?

Regards

 

[Shakeel]

So, someone born to non-Muslim parents that reaches puberty is not killed as an apostate for deciding Islam is not for them.

Did he convert to islam?

But a child born to Muslim parents that reaches puberty is killed as an apostate for deciding the same.

Correct?

What is the ruling on one who was born to Muslim parents then apostatised before or after reaching puberty? - Islam Question & Answer

 

[Meow Mix]

I am an Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim.
Till an individual becomes an adult, he/she is considered a Muslim. Of course if one becomes an adult and is not satisfied with the basic tenets of Islam( belief in one-ness of G-d and the messenger-ship of Muhammad), there is no point in keeping such a person within Islam, as Islam is in the heart of a person. There is no question of apostasy here , as I understand. Right?

Regards

Should anything negative happen to someone for deciding not to be a Muslim at this point? According to some, they should be killed. Is this thinking in error?

 

[Meow Mix]

Did he convert to islam?

What I'm not understanding is that you said all children are Muslims, so shouldn't they all be killed? Why are children of non-Muslim parents given leniency?

Edit: I guess there is an "age of discernment," where pre-pubescent children are somehow alleged to be able to make choices that could see them murdered if they change their mind about Islam?

What is the ruling on one who was born to Muslim parents then apostatised before or after reaching puberty? - Islam Question & Answer

This seems to say multiple times that puberty doesn't even matter, that children "from the age of discernment" can be valid apostates (I presume this means they can be killed?)

That's... let's just say much worse than what I was originally looking into with the OP. I didn't imagine I'd be casually discussing the murder of sentient and sapient children on a Wednesday morning and trying to be academic about it.

My original concern was about how unfair it would be for children to be locked into some belief that makes them wear clothes like hijab because of their parents, or be punished.

Now it's evolved to somehow prepubescent children being responsible for mortal decisions, to follow religious rules or to literally be murdered, because of whom they were born to (as in their odds of being "apostates" are greatly higher if their parents just happen to be Muslims).

Edit: I'm reading further, and I guess prepubescent children that are "apostates" should be left until puberty and forced to convert back with "beatings and threats," then executed if the beatings and threats don't work (according to some). Somehow this isn't any better.

 

[Meow Mix]

@Shakeel so one reason I started the thread is because I was thinking about the thread where you had no sympathy for the terrified women that were being accosted by men in Afghanistan because you said something about their clothing.

But what choice do they really have if their parents are Muslims: go along with it, or be murdered?

If they have doubts about Islam, if they don’t want to live that life, what choice do they have? It’s expectation of hijab (or burka) by being a Muslim or get murdered for not wanting to be one, right?

 

[Fool]

When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

god is greater than islam and muhammad


anything deified or worshiped other than god is a sin in islam.


so declaring allahu akabar is considered faithful. Also, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger." This is the basic statement of the Islamic faith:

 

[Shakeel]

the thread where you had no sympathy for the terrified women that were being accosted by men in Afghanistan because you said something about their clothing.

Did I say I had no sympathy or is that you putting words to my feelings of which you have no idea?

I said the reason they were spoke badly to was probably partly the way they were dressed. This is true even in America. I have no idea why saying something so obvious is such a problem to some people.

But what choice do they really have if their parents are Muslims: go along with it, or be murdered?

You're implying they were apostates. Which is a grave accusation, by the way, seeing as the punishment for it is excecution. They didn't say anything about it though. There is no reason to assume they were apostates. If they were, wouldn't they say so? Wouldn't it be just what you want to hear: "we don't want Islam." But they said no such thing.

If they have doubts about Islam, if they don’t want to live that life, what choice do they have?

They have the choice of leaving Islam or not, seeking out people who don't believe, moving away or hiding their apostasy. Little does it matter what they do if they leave Islam.

It’s expectation of hijab (or burka) by being a Muslim or get murdered for not wanting to be one, right?

Yes, there is an expectation of hijab (covering almost the whole body) if a woman is a Muslim. Yet women in Afghanistan, too, have been neglecting this duty for a long time. They should fear Allah's punishment.

There is no specific punishment for not wearing hijab in Islam.

 

[viole]

When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

To label little children as Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Jujuists, Communists, Libertarians, or whatever their parents happen to be, is child abuse. Period.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Every child is born a Muslim, in the state of fitrah; in his natural state.

Therefore, all non muslims in the world today are guilty of apostasy. And therefore worthy of death.
Right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Debater Slayer]

You're implying they were apostates. Which is a grave accusation, by the way, seeing as the punishment for it is excecution. They didn't say anything about it though. There is no reason to assume they were apostates. If they were, wouldn't they say so? Wouldn't it be just what you want to hear: "we don't want Islam." But they said no such thing.

I was born into a Muslim family and left Islam at 17. According to your beliefs, should I be executed for apostasy? And if you believe that apostates should be forced to reconvert or be executed if they don't, how are your beliefs any different from those who persecute Uyghur Muslims or Burmese Muslims?

They have the choice of leaving Islam or not, seeking out people who don't believe, moving away or hiding their apostasy. Little does it matter what they do if they leave Islam.

It seems bizarre to say they have the choice of leaving Islam or not given that you just said the penalty for apostasy is death. Living a life in hiding and suppressing one's beliefs for fear of being executed or otherwise physically punished is quite draconian, too, so it's not a desirable or humane alternative.

 

[Shakeel]

According to your beliefs, should I be executed for apostasy?

Those decisions are made by judges.

how are your beliefs any different from those who persecute Uyghur Muslims or Burmese Muslims?

How is Islam different from the Chinese government?

It seems bizarre to say they have the choice of leaving Islam or not given that you just said the penalty for apostasy is death

When I say the choice to leave Islam or not I'm not referring to pretending to be a Muslim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I said the reason they were spoke badly to was probably partly the way they were dressed. This is true even in America. I have no idea why saying something so obvious is such a problem to some people.

The problem is women being harassed for they what she wears. And, yeah, that statements screams a lack of sympathy and concern.

You're implying they were apostates. Which is a grave accusation, by the way, seeing as the punishment for it is excecution. They didn't say anything about it though. There is no reason to assume they were apostates. If they were, wouldn't they say so? Wouldn't it be just what you want to hear: "we don't want Islam." But they said no such thing.

If, by your claim we are all born Muslim, we all non-Muslims by default leave the Ummah.
And a lot of people do say "we don't want Islam." It's not unusual if they wind up dead or fleeing to the West.

They have the choice of leaving Islam or not, seeking out people who don't believe, moving away or hiding their apostasy. Little does it matter what they do if they leave Islam.

You make it sound easy. If it really mattered little, why do so many apostates--or even those who break away from mainstream Islam in places like Iran or Saudi Arabia and aren't apostates--flee to the West for their life? Why should hiding non-faith be desirable or even a consideration?

Yes, there is an expectation of hijab (covering almost the whole body) if a woman is a Muslim. Yet women in Afghanistan, too, have been neglecting this duty for a long time. They should fear Allah's punishment.

That sounds very cruel and barbaric. "Eat my shorts" is an appropriate response to systems that utilize fear to coerce compliance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Those decisions are made by judges.

I believe a simple yes or no to state your beliefs would suffice.

 

[Muffled]

Every child is born a Muslim, in the state of fitrah; in his natural state.

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The mother of every person gives him birth according to his true nature. It is subsequently his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. Had his parents been Muslim he would have also remained a Muslim. Every person to whom his mother gives birth (has two aspects of his life) ; when his mother gives birth Satan strikes him but it was not the case with Mary and her son (Jesus Christ)."

Someone who has reached puberty is accountable so his apostasy is valid.(according to some scholars a child's apostasy may be considered valid too, but I don't know if the punishment can be applied.)

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet said: "The pen has been lifted from three: From the sleeper until he wakes up, from the minor until he grows up, and from the insane until he comes back to his senses or recovers."'

Being an apostate means one is no longer in the fold of Islam and if his apostasy is brought in front of the law and proven and there are no factors that would affect the judgement, he would be executed.

"It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”'

Not wearing hijab is a sin, but it does not make one an apostate.

Something worse than a non-Muslim not wearing hijab? Non-Muslims don't need to wear hijab. There is no sin after disbelief.

In what matter?

I believe there is no law in the Qu'ran to execute apostates, Anything else is not from God but from the wicked hearts of men.

 

[Muffled]

I am an Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim.
Till an individual becomes an adult, he/she is considered a Muslim. Of course if one becomes an adult and is not satisfied with the basic tenets of Islam( belief in one-ness of G-d and the messenger-ship of Muhammad), there is no point in keeping such a person within Islam, as Islam is in the heart of a person. There is no question of apostasy here , as I understand. Right?

Regards

I believe considering a child a Muslim is a man made belief. What is true is that a child must obey his parents which means observing religious instruction as the parents command.

 

[Muffled]

To label little children as Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Jujuists, Communists, Libertarians, or whatever their parents happen to be, is child abuse. Period.

Ciao

- viole

I believe I fail to see any reason for saying that.