Islam Judaism & the Headscarf

[Sufi]

Islam Judaism & the Headscarf

Muslim Women:

Jewish Women:

Quran 024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.

Talmud requires that women cover their hair while in public, and Orthodox Jews still follow that tradition. kissui rosh

 

[Sufi]

[youtube]sLzg43NNNOM[/youtube]
YouTube - Many Jewish and Christian Women Also Wear the Veil

 

[Rakhel]

There is actually a dispute among Jews as to what constitutes a head covering these days, just as there is with every issue pertaining to Judaism

 

[David_2010]

One of the pictures of Jewish women wouldn't show up, but, is that a Jewish family, with the woman in a Burqa?, I never knew there were Jewish women who covered up to that extent (if she is Jewish, that is, I'm only guessing because her husband seems to have the traditional hair style I've seen very Orthodox-Haredi Jewish men have (I don't know what the hair style is called)).

I've never really seen Jewish women cover up, I've seen certain very strict Orthodox, or Haredi, women wear wigs, when I've been out (especially at Brent Cross shopping center, in North-West London, near a big Jewish population), but, I can't say I've seen many.

I know that, particularly older women from the Mediterranean area (e.g. Greece, Middle East, etc), do wear some type of head scarf when out, but, I always assumed it was some type of culural thing, not particularly religious.

Sorry if this is OT, but, what is the Jewish view of covering up?.

 

[Rakhel]

The family is probably Yemeni.They often dressed as Yemeni religious police demanded

 

[Levite]

The Talmud does not actually require that women cover their hair or other parts (save for the genital areas and breasts, of course), though most women did, simply because that was the prevailing custom and fashion amongst all people, Jewish and non-Jewish, in Babylonia at that time. It was the personal opinion of several Rabbis of the Talmud that women ought to be required to cover everything, including hair, but those opinions were never framed as halakhic commandments, nor were they ever made such. There is ample evidence to suggest that Jewish women followed the social codes of propriety of wherever they happened to live for many centuries following the completion of the Talmud. Those medieval Jews who lived in Muslim countries informally adopted Muslim ideas about dress and social propriety, while those who lived in European countries had many varying customs depending on what the social mores of the Christian areas they lived in happened to be. The custom of all women covering their heads was reintroduced by the mussar movement, a moralistic and ascetic movement whose teachings gradually filtered through much of the Jewish populace, until large segments followed the customs recommended in mussar literature. This was far more predominate in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe, and was one of the first things to be dispensed with during the Enlightenment, when Jews began forming non-Orthodox movements.

Today, those Orthodox who follow the custom do so because they subscribe to a principle that once a custom has been followed long enough, it takes the force of law. But those Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews who do not follow the custom do so because custom is only custom, and need not have the force of law.

As for the women in the pictures who seem to be wearing what look like hijab or burqa, they come from Arab countries (who kicked them all out after 1948, whereupon they all went to Israel, where they mostly still live) where Jews still dress like their Muslim neighbors. There are some Haredi communities (mostly in Israel) where women dress in something like a burqa, but that is a great anomaly, even in the Haredi world. Usually among Ashkenazim, Haredi women either wear wigs (which always seemed counterproductive to me), or kerchiefs, or snoods (like a knitted hairnet). Mizrahi or Sefardi Haredi women sometimes wear a headscarf that resembles a hijab, but often they too wear a kerchief or a snood, and a few are beginning to wear wigs like Ashkenazi Harediot.

Oh, and BTW, the curly and/or long sidelocks Haredi men wear are called peyot (or peyos, if you use the Ashkenazi pronunciation).

 

[Rakhel]

One year my husband spent Yom Kippur at a Chabad center. The rabbi and his young wife were new to the area(from Brooklyn actually). My husband told me that, unlike most Chabniks, she only wore a head covering when her husband prayed or on Shabbat or for holidays.She didn't even wear a wig when he wasn't praying. And lately, in NYC, I have seen more and more young Ashkenazi married women following the traditions of the Sephardi women.

I do believe(I could be wrong) that the Talmud does say that she should wear a head covering when her husband is praying,. Otherwise, it is unnecessary. Except when ill and even then it wasn't required.

 

[David_2010]

The Talmud does not actually require that women cover their hair or other parts (save for the genital areas and breasts, of course), though most women did, simply because that was the prevailing custom and fashion amongst all people, Jewish and non-Jewish, in Babylonia at that time. It was the personal opinion of several Rabbis of the Talmud that women ought to be required to cover everything, including hair, but those opinions were never framed as halakhic commandments, nor were they ever made such. There is ample evidence to suggest that Jewish women followed the social codes of propriety of wherever they happened to live for many centuries following the completion of the Talmud. Those medieval Jews who lived in Muslim countries informally adopted Muslim ideas about dress and social propriety, while those who lived in European countries had many varying customs depending on what the social mores of the Christian areas they lived in happened to be. The custom of all women covering their heads was reintroduced by the mussar movement, a moralistic and ascetic movement whose teachings gradually filtered through much of the Jewish populace, until large segments followed the customs recommended in mussar literature. This was far more predominate in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe, and was one of the first things to be dispensed with during the Enlightenment, when Jews began forming non-Orthodox movements.

Today, those Orthodox who follow the custom do so because they subscribe to a principle that once a custom has been followed long enough, it takes the force of law. But those Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews who do not follow the custom do so because custom is only custom, and need not have the force of law.

As for the women in the pictures who seem to be wearing what look like hijab or burqa, they come from Arab countries (who kicked them all out after 1948, whereupon they all went to Israel, where they mostly still live) where Jews still dress like their Muslim neighbors. There are some Haredi communities (mostly in Israel) where women dress in something like a burqa, but that is a great anomaly, even in the Haredi world. Usually among Ashkenazim, Haredi women either wear wigs (which always seemed counterproductive to me), or kerchiefs, or snoods (like a knitted hairnet). Mizrahi or Sefardi Haredi women sometimes wear a headscarf that resembles a hijab, but often they too wear a kerchief or a snood, and a few are beginning to wear wigs like Ashkenazi Harediot.

Oh, and BTW, the curly and/or long sidelocks Haredi men wear are called peyot (or peyos, if you use the Ashkenazi pronunciation).

Thanks for the explanation .

 

[Sufi]

 

[Sufi]

Tzniut - Jewish Modesty: then and now

YouTube - Tzniut - Jewish Modesty: then and now

 

[Levite]

Tzniut - Jewish Modesty: then and now

This is an extremely Haredi position. The majority of Jews do not believe in that fashion, nor is what he says entirely correct. It is one way to interpret a tradition of customs dating back over a thousand years. It is by no means the only way. Nor are these customs Jewish Law. They are traditions that Jews have followed, often without any of the theological aspects that Haredi use of mussar (moralistic) interpretations, but merely as modesty according to the customs of the place in which they live.

Also, not that it matters, but the apparently Ashkenazi narrator's attempt to use a Yemenite ritual pronunciation of Hebrew is not good.

 

[Sufi]

This is an extremely Haredi position. The majority of Jews do not believe in that fashion, nor is what he says entirely correct. It is one way to interpret a tradition of customs dating back over a thousand years. It is by no means the only way. Nor are these customs Jewish Law. They are traditions that Jews have followed, often without any of the theological aspects that Haredi use of mussar (moralistic) interpretations, but merely as modesty according to the customs of the place in which they live.

Also, not that it matters, but the apparently Ashkenazi narrator's attempt to use a Yemenite ritual pronunciation of Hebrew is not good.

I am sure he isnt Ashkenazi he is what Jews call a ''Jew by Choice'' Convert to Judaism.

 

[Levite]

I am sure he isnt Ashkenazi he is what Jews call a ''Jew by Choice'' Convert to Judaism.

Well, all the more so, then....

 

[Sufi]

Also, not that it matters, but the apparently Ashkenazi narrator's attempt to use a Yemenite ritual pronunciation of Hebrew is not good.

Can you explain why you view his usage of it as problematic.

 

[Levite]

Can you explain why you view his usage of it as problematic.

Yemenite pronunciation is generally considered to be the most anciently authentic, resembling most what we think Biblical Hebrew would have sounded like when spoken in Biblical times. Most Yemenites do not even use their traditional prounuciation for everyday speech today, only for prayer and ritual. When they do so, it does have a very lovely, if slightly odd-sounding lilt and softening of hard consonants that is quite distinctive.

It has become a fad amongst certain non-Yemenite secular Jews in Israeli academic circles, and among non-Yemenite Haredim in certain Mizrahi Orthodox circles to imitate the old Yemenite pronunciation as a way of flamboyantly demonstrating the supposed authenticity of their knowledge and practice. It is pretentious, annoying, and a sure sign that the speaker is talking out of his...um, hat.