Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[Redemptionsong]

I don't see why not. "An eye for an eye" simply means that the judicial punishment of a crime must be proportional to the crime. What do you think it should be instead? No punishment for crime? Two eyes for an eye?


Sorry but I don't see how that conflicts.

Yes, in one sense there is justice. Iniquity is paid for with a punishment. But how just is it that the perpetrator of iniquity gets to escape punishment, whilst an innocent suffers the punishment? Vicarious suffering suggests that one (an innocent) suffers on behalf of another (the guilty).

According to your interpretation of Isaiah 53, a remnant of lsrael, whom you believe to be obedient to the law, are made to suffer for the unrighteous in lsrael. Yet, it says in the JPS (lsaiah 53:9),
'And his grave was set among the wicked,
And with the rich, in his death -
Though he had done no injustice
And had spoken no falsehood.'

Do you think this accurately represents the 'remnant of lsrael'?

Where do you think we will find this 'remnant' today?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, in one sense there is justice. Iniquity is paid for with a punishment. But how just is it that the perpetrator of iniquity gets to escape punishment, whilst an innocent suffers the punishment? Vicarious suffering suggests that one (an innocent) suffers on behalf of another (the guilty).

According to your interpretation of Isaiah 53, a remnant of lsrael, whom you believe to be obedient to the law, are made to suffer for the unrighteous in lsrael. Yet, it says in the JPS (lsaiah 53:9),
'And his grave was set among the wicked,
And with the rich, in his death -
Though he had done no injustice
And had spoken no falsehood.'

Do you think this accurately represents the 'remnant of lsrael'?

Where do you think we will find this 'remnant' today?

An eye for an eye refers to civil, earthly justice. If you get your hand cut off for stealing a piece of pizza, that is not justice, not eye for an eye. We SHOULD try to have an eye for an eye in our justice system.

But God is more focused on helping us become all that we are capable of being. He is forever teaching us. When he does punish, it is always with thte intent of teaching us better. And as every parent knows, there is a time exact a punishment, and there are other times you forgive and smother with hugs.

 

[wizanda]

So there is not a problem with David being a servant in Psalm 89:21, yet the servant being Israel in Isaiah.

Isaiah 52:13-14 is literally paraphrasing David in Psalms 89:19-21 with four keywords; if we include verse 10, it makes it 5 words.

David was Yehoshua/Yeshua two thousand years ago, and David returns as the Messiah according to multiple verses (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc).

Then many of you who are supposed to be Jews (Praising the Lord), are trying to overwrite Messianic prophecy with the made up Rabbinic ideas.

In my understanding of scripture, our people were cut off in Zechariah 11 because the 'Worthless Leaders' corrupted the religion since Babylon, and now you're so set on their ideas, many of you have rejected what was prophesied in the Bible.

If you think it means a literal resurrection then the resulting leader would be David and no one else, including Jesus.

I find it so shocking you make statements I find completely contrary to the Jewish/Israelite contexts, to follow the Rabbi instead.

Yehoshua was a symbolic naming going back to Hosea son of Nun, being renamed Yehoshua as he would 'bring salvation/deliverance', leading the people into the promised land, and that symbolic naming implies the 'Lord Saves' (Exodus 23:20-23 - Joshua 3:10).

Yehoshua son of Yehozadek lead the people back from the Babylon Exile, and helped build the 2nd temple.

Then Yehoshua son of Joseph & Myriam is all prophetic naming, that Joseph was chucked into a pit by his brothers, and given a great inheritance to share with the strong.

So Yehoshua two thousand years ago was the flesh of David to fulfil the Suffering Servant, and High Priest to our people (Messiah ben Joseph).

Then to return in Zechariah 12:8-10 as an angel/divine being before our people (Messiah ben David).

I believe I can prove legally from the world's religious texts, that I'm that being sent by God here before Armageddon, and the destruction of the human race, then after some of us will be resurrected.

Do you think God thinks his people are marred?

No I don't think God has a people; I believe the Lord of Creation (YHVH) was given the nation of Israel, and they've got very confused about language, to the point they've rejected the religion they were given as prophesied.

Then I don't see it using the word 'Marred', as it doesn't make historical or contextual sense of what was understood about Isaiah 53.

So you are predicating your rectitude on being an archangel?

I'm not claiming my divine origin makes the case; I'm claiming the texts shows these things exegetically, and I believe it is possible for me to educate the Rabbinic Jews or allow God to obliterate them for rejecting religious prophecies.

I expect angels of any sort to be familiar with Hebrew grammar and linguistics and you are not.

I'm in a human form or a son of man, if I wasn't in this body, and existed in my angelic form, then I'd be connected to God with all knowledge - thus then would know the grammar, etc.

I believe I was told prior to reading the Bible at the fulfilment of Revelation 10, that I'm here to close the Snare that Yeshua/Immanuel set in Isaiah 8:11-22; where in Isaiah 28 is the Bed of Adultery before Judgement Day, and it specifically states the Messiah will return 'speaking another language to our people' (Isaiah 28:11-13) - yet be rejected, and then God keeps the enlightened saints.

So you should be saying "the foreign kings were wrong -- the nation of Israel isn't bringing any sort of atonement for them" because that's what the text stipulates.

I find that is missing many of the contexts that Isaiah 53 is interlinking to, and just because under educated gentiles claim something, we shouldn't reject the contexts for a dumb appraisal (Deuteronomy 32:21).

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

An eye for an eye refers to civil, earthly justice. If you get your hand cut off for stealing a piece of pizza, that is not justice, not eye for an eye. We SHOULD try to have an eye for an eye in our justice system.

But God is more focused on helping us become all that we are capable of being. He is forever teaching us. When he does punish, it is always with thte intent of teaching us better. And as every parent knows, there is a time exact a punishment, and there are other times you forgive and smother with hugs.

I have no problem with justice, or with mercy! The issue presented to us in Isaiah 53 is one of vicarious suffering, and to me this is more about mercy than it is about justice. Justice intended for the guilty party, in the form of punishment, has been taken by the innocent party. As it says in lsaiah 53:11(JPS),
'My righteous servant makes the many righteous,
It is their punishment that he bears;'

The question l would have you answer is, How does vicarious suffering by the servant of God make 'the many righteous'?

You are a Jew, either part of the remnant or part of the wider body of Jacob. Have you been made righteous by the sufferings of the remnant of lsrael?

 

[wizanda]

The question l would have you answer is, How does vicarious suffering by the servant of God make 'the many righteous'?

Isaiah 53:11 says 'by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many'.

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Isaiah 53:11 says 'by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many'.

In my opinion.

Yes!

Hebrews 8:9,10. 'For this is the covenant that l will make with the house of lsrael after those days, saith the Lord; l will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and l will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.'

To my understanding, knowledge of God is by revelation, and revelation comes through the indwelling Holy Spirit. The only way to receive the Holy Spirit is through faith in the Son!

 

[rosends]

I find it so shocking you make statements I find completely contrary to the Jewish/Israelite contexts, to follow the Rabbi instead.

I find it shocking that you think you understand "Jewish/Israelite contexts".

Yehoshua was a symbolic naming going back to Hosea son of Nun, being renamed Yehoshua as he would 'bring salvation/deliverance', leading the people into the promised land, and that symbolic naming implies the 'Lord Saves' (Exodus 23:20-23 - Joshua 3:10).

Many biblical names have origins and meanings but they are names and the names belong to the people who have them even if the meaning doesn't apply. Parents often choose names for other reasons. I know a guy named "Yehoshua" and he hasn't done any of these fancy things whereas I know a guy named Chaim who did.

So Yehoshua two thousand years ago was the flesh of David to fulfil the Suffering Servant, and High Priest to our people (Messiah ben Joseph).

That makes zero sense. Not even 1 sense. Just zero sense.

I believe I can prove legally from the world's religious texts, that I'm that being sent by God here before Armageddon, and the destruction of the human race, then after some of us will be resurrected.

I believe I can prove in a court of law that you are certifiably insane.

No I don't think God has a people; I believe the Lord of Creation (YHVH) was given the nation of Israel, and they've got very confused about language, to the point they've rejected the religion they were given as prophesied.

So you reject the black letter text in which God says he has a people, a people whom he chose. If it works for you to reject God, have fun with that.

Then I don't see it using the word 'Marred', as it doesn't make historical or contextual sense of what was understood about Isaiah 53.

Well, if you misread it and don't know either the history or context then, year, that can happen.

I'm not claiming my divine origin makes the case; I'm claiming the texts shows these things exegetically, and I believe it is possible for me to educate the Rabbinic Jews or allow God to obliterate them for rejecting religious prophecies.

But you can't read the text and you reject what the text says.

I'm in a human form or a son of man, if I wasn't in this body, and existed in my angelic form, then I'd be connected to God with all knowledge - thus then would know the grammar, etc.

.ווען די באָבע װאָלט געהאַט רעדער, װאָלט זי געװען אַן אָמניבוס

I believe I was told prior to reading the Bible at the fulfilment of Revelation 10, that I'm here to close the Snare that Yeshua/Immanuel set in Isaiah 8:11-22; where in Isaiah 28 is the Bed of Adultery before Judgement Day, and it specifically states the Messiah will return 'speaking another language to our people' (Isaiah 28:11-13) - yet be rejected, and then God keeps the enlightened saints.

"Well, I thought it was a very lovely story. And you tell it so well. With such enthusiasm."

I find that is missing many of the contexts that Isaiah 53 is interlinking to, and just because under educated gentiles claim something, we shouldn't reject the contexts for a dumb appraisal (Deuteronomy 32:21).

I find that what is missing is any semblance of connection to reality in your posts. So there's that.

 

[wizanda]

I believe I can prove in a court of law that you are certifiably insane.

Whereas I've got evidence that I've known since 4-5 years old my name is in the world's religious texts, and have fulfilled multiple prophecies; not sure what you'd submit in court to prove the return of the Messiah is fake.

So you reject the black letter text in which God says he has a people, a people whom he chose.

It doesn't say God has a people in the Hebrew; it says YHVH Elohim, which implies the Lord of Creation of the Divine Council.

In Deuteronomy 32:7-9 the Source of reality (El Elyon) separated the nations among the Elohim (Divine Council), and gave the nation of Israel to the Creator Divine Being (YHVH Eloh).

That makes zero sense. Not even 1 sense. Just zero sense.

What didn't you understand?

Do you get there are two ideas of the Messiah in the texts; the Suffering Servant (Messiah ben Joseph), and the Triumphant King (Messiah ben David)?

Do you understand that in Isaiah 42:1 the Lord places his spirit upon the Messiah, and in Isaiah 52:10 the spirit of Salvation is placed into a sanctified vessel (Isaiah 52:11)?

Where Isaiah 52:10-14 is paraphrasing David in Psalms 89:19-21... Thus making it that the being referenced in Isaiah 52:14 as 'My Servant', has to be King David reincarnated as Yehoshua/Yeshua, to make sense of all the prophetic utterances.

But you can't read the text

I've found there are too many references to understand it all just by reading, we need software like Esword to be able to do word searches to correlate it all; as the Bible works more like computer code, interlinking concepts by keyword references.

If we look at people like Rashi, he started correlating some of the interlinking passages; yet it's so vast, even if we can read it in Hebrew, it doesn't mean we can get all the intertextuality.

In my opinion.

 

[rosends]

Whereas I've got evidence that I've known since 4-5 years old my name is in the world's religious texts, and have fulfilled multiple prophecies; not sure what you'd submit in court to prove the return of the Messiah is fake.

I never said the messiah is fake. If that's the extent of your reading comprehension then you have bigger problems than simple insanity.

It doesn't say God has a people in the Hebrew; it says YHVH Elohim, which implies the Lord of Creation of the Divine Council.

Since you don't know the Hebrew it is strange that you would make this claim. Also if you are trying to separate the being of the 4 letter name from "God" then I have no idea what you are talking about.

In Deuteronomy 32:7-9 the Source of reality (El Elyon) separated the nations among the Elohim (Divine Council), and gave the nation of Israel to the Creator Divine Being (YHVH Eloh).

Wow...so you really don't understand 32:7-9 and have a bizarre idea about all these divine beings. Good for you!

What didn't you understand?

You logic, your semantics, your claims. ZERO made sense.

Do you get there are two ideas of the Messiah in the texts; the Suffering Servant (Messiah ben Joseph), and the Triumphant King (Messiah ben David)?

Well, since you are starting from a wrong position, I guess it follows that you would draw the wrong conclusions. One thing I find funny is that you won't find any mention of a "Messiah ben Joseph" in any written biblical text -- it is fleshed out in rabbinic texts. And yet you ignore all the other rabbinic ideas including that the appearance of the Ben Joseph is not an essential part of the messianic idea. So you pick and choose things you don't understand. Fascinating.

Do you understand that in Isaiah 42:1 the Lord places his spirit upon the Messiah, and in Isaiah 52:10 the spirit of Salvation is placed into a sanctified vessel (Isaiah 52:11)?

Where Isaiah 52:10-14 is paraphrasing David in Psalms 89:19-21... Thus making it that the being referenced in Isaiah 52:14 as 'My Servant', has to be King David reincarnated as Yehoshua/Yeshua, to make sense of all the prophetic utterances.

So you are making things up and ignoring what I posted. OK. We have established that your reading comprehension skills are very limited. Maybe when you are back in your angelic form, your reading scores will improve.

I've found there are too many references to understand it all just by reading, we need software like Esword to be able to do word searches to correlate it all; as the Bible works more like computer code, interlinking concepts by keyword references.

You also believe that you are some sort of divine being. Clearly you can be favulously wrong on a variety of levels at the same time.

If we look at people like Rashi, he started correlating some of the interlinking passages; yet it's so vast, even if we can read it in Hebrew, it doesn't mean we can get all the intertextuality.

I'm pretty sure Rashi had a much better sense of the texts and their meaning than you do. You just keep on with your "in my opinion" craziness. It is amusing to watch

 

[wizanda]

I never said the messiah is fake. If that's the extent of your reading comprehension then you have bigger problems than simple insanity.

I wasn't questioning if you accept the Messianic statements; I'm saying I know I can prove that I fulfil the Messianic prophecies before Judgement Day.

Also if you are trying to separate the being of the 4 letter name from "God"

Having met God in a Near Death Experience, it doesn't have a name, as it is the Source of everything that exists; the Divine Council have names, and YHVH implies the Lord of Creation.

Since you don't know the Hebrew it is strange that you would make this claim.

Because we can use Bible software to look up everything, and prove what the texts justify.

so you really don't understand 32:7-9 and have a bizarre idea about all these divine beings.

According to what is stated by the rest of that chapter, in Deuteronomy 32:22 the Source of reality plans on cleansing here with quantum fire, restoring here back to Eden; where only those who get the theology referenced, will exist after.

One thing I find funny is that you won't find any mention of a "Messiah ben Joseph" in any written biblical text -- it is fleshed out in rabbinic texts.

As far as I understand Rabbinic ideas originated from Biblical exegesis; yet they've then become Chinese Whispers over time... I can show where the ideas came from Biblically, and how they've got confused.

You also believe that you are some sort of divine being.

I've known since childhood that I'm sent from Heaven, have references in many of the world's religious texts, and have had a Near Death Experience... It isn't some guess, like literally God sent me to fulfil your prophecies.

In my opinion.

 

[rosends]

I wasn't questioning if you accept the Messianic statements; I'm saying I know I can prove that I fulfil the Messianic prophecies before Judgement Day.

You should reread what you wrote. And since you haven't a clue about what the actual messianic prophecies are, I have serious doubts about your claim.

Having met God in a Near Death Experience, it doesn't have a name, as it is the Source of everything that exists; the Divine Council have names, and YHVH implies the Lord of Creation.

That's um..."interesting."

Because we can use Bible software to look up everything, and prove what the texts justify.

Software doesn't provide understanding.

According to what is stated by the rest of that chapter, in Deuteronomy 32:22 the Source of reality plans on cleansing here with quantum fire, restoring here back to Eden; where only those who get the theology referenced, will exist after.

Um, no.

As far as I understand Rabbinic ideas originated from Biblical exegesis; yet they've then become Chinese Whispers over time... I can show where the ideas came from Biblically, and how they've got confused.

Then you understand wrong and you are the one who is confused.

I've known since childhood that I'm sent from Heaven, have references in many of the world's religious texts, and have had a Near Death Experience... It isn't some guess, like literally God sent me to fulfil your prophecies.

Yeah, insane. Good luck.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not claiming my divine origin makes the case;

Honestly I am so concerned for you. This is a delusion. You need to discuss this with your doctor, so that he can adjust your meds. I will pray for you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The question l would have you answer is, How does vicarious suffering by the servant of God make 'the many righteous'?

As a Christian, you believe in the vicarious suffering of Jesus. It's the same thing, except that it is the vicarious suffering of Israel.

 

[Redemptionsong]

As a Christian, you believe in the vicarious suffering of Jesus. It's the same thing, except that it is the vicarious suffering of Israel.

If the remnant of lsrael suffers for the unrighteous, then the remnant of lsrael are the righteous. Yet, if one reads Psalm 53 (JPS) it says, 'there is none who does good, not even one'. So, how can sinners intercede for sinners (lsaiah 53:12)? Clearly, all men are sinners (see Psalm 51) in need of salvation from God.

What do you understand lsaiah 64:6,7 to be saying?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the remnant of lsrael suffers for the unrighteous, then the remnant of lsrael are the righteous. Yet, if one reads Psalm 53 (JPS) it says, 'there is none who does good, not even one'. So, how can sinners intercede for sinners (lsaiah 53:12). Clearly, all men are sinners (see Psalm 51) in need of salvation from God.

What do you understand lsaiah 64:6,7 to be saying?

Yes, the whole point is that the remnant of israel is rightous, meaning that they aspire to keep the commandments and repent when they fall.

Proverbs 24:16 “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, the whole point is that the remnant of israel is rightous, meaning that they aspire to keep the commandments and repent when they fall.

Proverbs 24:16 “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”

Then you must agree that there is a difference between the righteousness of God and the righteousness of man. A sinner must seek God in repentance, whereas God has no need to repent.

Repentance is man's heart cry to God to forgive and be merciful towards him: Psalm 51:1 'Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness:'

One may infer that God is the only truly righteous one.

It says in Psalm 51:7, 'Purge me with hyssop, and l shall be clean: wash me, and l shall be whiter than snow.'

Clearly man cannot be cleaned by the power of man, because the requirement to be clean is spiritual, not physical. Only God is able to clean a man of his iniquity and sin. All repentance is dependent on the goodness of God.

So, how can the remnant of Israel hope to make clean the whole body of lsrael?

 

[wizanda]

You should reread what you wrote. And since you haven't a clue about what the actual messianic prophecies are

Reread it multiple times, and I believe the problem was you started assuming you'd win in court; against what I understand is overwhelming evidence, without you knowing a majority of the info.

Next when you're claiming from a Rabbinic mindset that I don't understand your ideas about Messianic prophecy, I understand quite a bit of what Rabbinic Jews expect; yet find much of it doesn't align with what the Bible prophesied in total - It is almost like the Rabbi have taken all the good bits promised, and missed out any of the negatives before it.

I was educated about a lot of advanced concepts as a child by God, and then on studying these since 24, realized I already fulfilled lots of prophecy before Judgement Day, and then the resurrection; thus my comprehension of what Messianic prophecy is, was because I was shown it by God prior to studying it.

Software doesn't provide understanding.

Software on its own doesn't provide understanding; the study using advanced mechanisms does...

It is like having a scientific calculator, with the right mechanisms, we can do sums well beyond what we'd normally comprehend.

Then you understand wrong

If you could show where the ideas of Messiah ben Joseph, and Messiah ben David didn't start in the Tanakh, please do so, and I'll question my errors.

Honestly I am so concerned for you. This is a delusion.

Delusions are without evidence; whereas I've been told by God as a child before reading religious texts, that I'm here before the Great Tribulation, and then Judgement day; with my name in many of the world's religious texts.

As a Christian, you believe in the vicarious suffering of Jesus. It's the same thing, except that it is the vicarious suffering of Israel.

Whereas you want to accuse me of being delusional for having had God speak to me, and claiming to have fulfilled prophecy...

I find you declaring that God tortured people for some form of atonement delusional, as it goes against the very moral standards that God upholds.

Plus is not dealing with the consistency of what Isaiah 53 is about, which we should be able to debate logically, based on what the texts stipulated.

Clearly man cannot be cleaned by the power of man, because the requirement to be clean is spiritual, not physical. Only God is able to clean a man of their iniquity and sin. All repentance is dependent on the goodness of God.

Do you acknowledge that God doesn't need paying (as everything is God's already), and that really God can forgive sin simply by us repenting/changing our ways?

Plus that for God to clean sin, like in Isaiah 6 God simply has to wish it, and it is done without need of any price?

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Reread it multiple times, and I believe the problem was you started assuming you'd win in court; against what I understand is overwhelming evidence, without you knowing a majority of the info.

Next when you're claiming from a Rabbinic mindset that I don't understand your ideas about Messianic prophecy, I understand quite a bit of what Rabbinic Jews expect; yet find much of it doesn't align with what the Bible prophesied in total - It is almost like the Rabbi have taken all the good bits promised, and missed out any of the negatives before it.

I was educated about a lot of advanced concepts as a child by God, and then on studying these since 24, realized I already fulfilled lots of prophecy before Judgement Day, and then the resurrection; thus my comprehension of what Messianic prophecy is, was because I was shown it by God prior to studying it.

Software on its own doesn't provide understanding; the study using advanced mechanisms does...

It is like having a scientific calculator, with the right mechanisms, we can do sums well beyond what we'd normally comprehend.

If you could show where the ideas of Messiah ben Joseph, and Messiah ben David didn't start in the Tanakh, please do so, and I'll question my errors.

Delusions are without evidence; whereas I've been told by God as a child before reading religious texts, that I'm here before the Great Tribulation, and then Judgement day; with my name in many of the world's religious texts.

Whereas you want to accuse me of being delusional for having had God speak to me, and claiming to have fulfilled prophecy...

I find you declaring that God tortured people for some form of atonement delusional, as it goes against the very moral standards that God upholds.

Plus is not dealing with the consistency of what Isaiah 53 is about, which we should be able to debate logically, based on what the texts stipulated.

Do you acknowledge that God doesn't need paying (as everything is God's already), and that really God can forgive sin simply by us repenting/changing our ways?

Plus that for God to clean sin, like in Isaiah 6 God simply has to wish it, and it is done without need of any price?

In my opinion.

I agree that God is able to wipe the slate clean whenever He wishes, but from the beginning God made it clear that He wanted His people to be holy, as He is holy.

To forgive sin, and then to see a person return to their old ways, like a dog to its vomit, is not the desired end of forgiveness. This is the reason that a house that is swept and cleaned needs to be occupied by the Holy Spirit, to ensure that unwelcome occupants do not take over the house again.

The crucifixion of the flesh was followed by resurrection to new life, and this involved a baptism in Holy Spirit. The new life cannot begin until the Pentecostal fire has descended! That is why the birth of the Church did not occur until the day of Pentecost.

 

[rosends]

Reread it multiple times, and I believe the problem was you started assuming you'd win in court; against what I understand is overwhelming evidence, without you knowing a majority of the info.

What you "understand" is your opinion supported by your delusion.

Next when you're claiming from a Rabbinic mindset that I don't understand your ideas about Messianic prophecy, I understand quite a bit of what Rabbinic Jews expect; yet find much of it doesn't align with what the Bible prophesied in total - It is almost like the Rabbi have taken all the good bits promised, and missed out any of the negatives before it.

You don't understand any of it and have decided what the bible prophesied based on your misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. That's ok.

I was educated about a lot of advanced concepts as a child by God, and then on studying these since 24, realized I already fulfilled lots of prophecy before Judgement Day, and then the resurrection; thus my comprehension of what Messianic prophecy is, was because I was shown it by God prior to studying it.

Yes, delusion.

If you could show where the ideas of Messiah ben Joseph, and Messiah ben David didn't start in the Tanakh, please do so, and I'll question my errors.

You see, that's the problem. You want me to show you where something isn't in a text. Can you find me the words "messiah ben joseph" or an explicit mention of the messiah ben joseph in a biblical text? You can only find thigs that were (or, by you, are) interpreted to refer to this concept.

Delusions are without evidence; whereas I've been told by God as a child before reading religious texts, that I'm here before the Great Tribulation, and then Judgement day; with my name in many of the world's religious texts.

You see, your reporting that you had a delucion is not evidence that the delusion is fact. It is just the essence of the delusion.

Whereas you want to accuse me of being delusional for having had God speak to me, and claiming to have fulfilled prophecy...

Not want, I do. And it isn't an accusation, just a statement of fact.

I find you declaring that God tortured people for some form of atonement delusional, as it goes against the very moral standards that God upholds.

Except I never said that. I explained that the section of Isiah reports foreign kings as making that claim.

Do you acknowledge that God doesn't need paying (as everything is God's already), and that really God can forgive sin simply by us repenting/changing our ways?

God can forgive sin even without people's repenting. Moses prayed after a number of biblical incidents and God forgave the people. Is there any textual proof that they repented? No.

 

[wizanda]

What you "understand" is your opinion supported by your delusion.

A delusion doesn't have evidence; it has ideas that can't be shown.

Can you find me the words "messiah ben joseph" or an explicit mention of the messiah ben joseph in a biblical text? You can only find thigs that were (or, by you, are) interpreted to refer to this concept.

I Believe we can show the origins of an idea of two Messianic figures in the Bible, they are not specifically saying a phrase 'Messiah ben Joseph'...

Yet based on the way I understand the Bible, that many of the names can be comprehended as prophetically placed, I try to address how this could add up - Not try to debunk the case, as I or any other authority, know more than the texts.

Yes, delusion.

Claiming other people's experiences are not evidential, with no case files to assess any of it, is delusional.

I explained that the section of Isiah reports foreign kings as making that claim.

Actually you justified you had an opinion about it, you didn't detail where the Bible texts stipulates the ideas..

Like I've heard Rabbinic Jews basically saying it is about other nations being startled by the tortured Jews, which then causes the nations to recognize God.

I can understand them misquoting Isaiah 52:15, thinking the 'Kings startled' is about them being seen Suffering by the nations, as they are the 'My Servant' they think is none defined; so then they've declared the none defined 'My Servants' in Isaiah about them...

Without them recognizing the Psalms were a backbone of the Jewish life; thus it is more than likely, Isaiah 52:10-14 was inspired to continue what David uttered many times of calling himself the 'My Servant', and specifically in Psalms 89:19-21 & Psalms 89:3...

If we address logically, and consistently where the details are, it makes it a much better debate - Esword helps, it is so much easier to do advanced studies.

God can forgive sin even without people's repenting.

I'm sorry, I find that a bizarre statement...

Though it is possible for God to forgive automatically, without people changing their ways - it then allows for the world to become a worse place.

The idea of repentance, is to turn back the other way - from the material darkness, into the heavenly light, that comes from the Source of reality (God).

At people's final review at death they will see the ramifications of their actions, and so unless they've got a willingness to want to change their ways (repentance), they'll have a very hard time.

In my opinion.