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Isaac or Ishmael

Mystic-als

Active Member
I was raised christian. And since an early age was taught that Isaac was the son of promise and therefore the Inheretance of Abraham was due to him. Regardless or Ishmael being first born.

Please can the JEWISH RFers ONLY explain to me why this is so.
And what impact does this have on the current conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Thank you soo much in advance.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I was raised christian. And since an early age was taught that Isaac was the son of promise and therefore the Inheretance of Abraham was due to him. Regardless or Ishmael being first born.

Please can the JEWISH RFers ONLY explain to me why this is so.
And what impact does this have on the current conflict between Palestine and Israel.

Thank you soo much in advance.

Parshas Vayeira
So HaShem said to Avraham, "Be not distressed over the youth or your slavewomam: Whatever Sarah tells you, heed her voice, since through Isaac will offspring be considered yours".
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Deut 13:1 said:
Parshas Vayeira
So HaShem said to Avraham, "Be not distressed over the youth or your slavewomam: Whatever Sarah tells you, heed her voice, since through Isaac will offspring be considered yours".

indeed!

good to see you again Deut 13:1!
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
This isn't another virgin-birth story.
I didn't say it was. What was asking: was Ishmael entitled to his inheritance from Abraham? If he was entitled, did he get it? If he wasn't entitled why?
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Mystic-als said:
I didn't say it was. What was asking: was Ishmael entitled to his inheritance from Abraham? If he was entitled, did he get it? If he wasn't entitled why?
He was given what Avraham had left for him. It was not the full blessings of continuing Avraham's family which he passed onto his son Isaac. Ishmael was NOT entitled to the full inheritence for two reasons: 1) HaShem said so. 2) Ishmael didn't follow Avraham's way of life - the way to HaShem.

Parashas Vayeira
Sarah saw the son of Hagar, the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Avraham, mocking.

וַתֵּרֶא שָׂרָה אֶת-בֶּן-הָגָר הַמִּצְרִית, אֲשֶׁר-יָלְדָה לְאַבְרָהָם--מְצַחֵק

According to Rashi, the Torah chooses this verb, mitzachek, to denote the three cardinal sins: murder, idolatry, and adultery. Rashi continues to say that Ishmael's behaviourproved he had became corrupt and evil and he needed to be sent away.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Was Ishmael not just a infant? I thought he was. Him being evil would only make sense if he was past the age of accountablity. Or not so?
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Mystic-als said:
Was Ishmael not just a infant? I thought he was. Him being evil would only make sense if he was past the age of accountablity. Or not so?

no Ishmael was at least 13 years old at the time...if not older. He was def. bar mitzvah age
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
According to Professor Cohen ...
A connection is suggested near the end of the previous Torah portion, Hayyei Sarah, when the banished Ishmael suddenly and mysteriously returns to join Isaac in burying their father (25:9). Generations of commentators were surprised by Ishmael's reappearance and interpreted it as meaning that he had repented. But what were Ishmael's sins? The midrash draws on the verse: "Sarah saw the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham playing [metzahek]" (21:9). The kindest interpretation of this word holds that, as a child, Ishmael had taunted his
brother Isaac. A harsher view holds that Sarah saw him committing idolatry. Another rabbi says that it was adultery, and yet another, murder (Bere**** Rabbah 53). Clearly perplexed by the banishment of an innocent Ishmael, the rabbis used their exegetical wisdom to divine his guilt.
But Rabbi Sa'adyah Gaon, living among Arabs in Baghdad in the 1Oth century, rejects the stringent explanations and prefers the simplest, most literal one: teased. Moreover, Sa'adyah adds, Ishmael could not have been sinful, or God would not have listened to his voice in the wilderness and saved him (21:17). He translates (into Arabic) Sarah's outburst "the son of that slave shall not share in the inheritance with my son Isaac" (21:10) as "the son of this aidservant shall not dwell together with my son Isaac." Sarah did not have the right to disinherit Ishmael, Sa'adyah explains. The pioneer of Judeo-Arabic culture in the Middle Ages held temperate views about the Isaac-Ishmael conflict.
As I read the text, Ishmael's disinheritance is not categorical. Even the embittered Esau understood this. At the end of Toldot, Esau watches his father send Jacob off to Paddan-Aram to find a wife from among his mother's kin, lest he marry a Canaanite woman. "So Esau went to Ishmael and took to wife, in addition to the [Canaanite] wives he had, Mahalat the daughter of Ishmael" (28:9).
As Isaac and Ishmael struggle over patrimony today, Jews should recognize Ishmael's inherent rights. Extremists on both sides of the conflict must loosen their grip on exclusivity and, transcending sibling rivalry, come together - as Isaac and Ishmael did at their father's burial - to share an ancient promise. It seems today, more than a year ago, that this prospect of sharing may be near.

Mark R. Cohen, professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, is the author of "Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages."

- see Exclusivity and Patrimony
It should be remembered that many Jews, while acknowledging the interesting (and problematic) quality od the story, would see it as no more than story.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Okay. Do you agree with the bible account that God heard Hagar's cries in the worlderness and blessed her son Ishmael to become a great nation?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Mystic-als said:
Okay. Do you agree with the bible account that God heard Hagar's cries in the worlderness and blessed her son Ishmael to become a great nation?
What is the relevance of your question? This is a forum about Judaism - not a forum for rhetorical 'debate'.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Read your post just before that question and then read my reply just after that question. It'll make sense. While I was posting a question you posted the answer.

And the relevance is what we (as non-jews) are told. As opposed to the truth. I would advise you to read a little before passing snide comments. That is twice now that this has happened in this forum. As opposed to the Muslim forum where I asked the same question and have perhaps challenged it moreso than here. They only ever answered with respect.

Thank you for your input. This is the last time I post here.
 
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