Is this correct? Please refute if incorrect.

[crossfire]

Doing some research for another thread, I found that Israel's defacto constitution (Ḥukey HaYesod) does not have an Equal Protection Under the Law clause. Is this true? If untrue, please refute it. Thank you.

 

[icehorse]

I'm more interested in understanding what life is really like for minority populations across the ME.

For example, Israel has about 400 active Mosques, and in the predominately Sunni ruled ME, there are almost no synagogues at all.

While not perfect, it strikes me that Israel is really "walking the walk" when it comes to freedom of religion.

 

[crossfire]

I'm more interested in understanding what life is really like for minority populations across the ME.

For example, Israel has about 400 active Mosques, and in the predominately Sunni ruled ME, there are almost no synagogues at all.

While not perfect, it strikes me that Israel is really "walking the walk" when it comes to freedom of religion.

Freedom of religion is not equal protection under the law. That's something that you really need to be a stickler about if you are risking a nationalist movement. If you don't maintain that, then the malignant side effects of nationalist movements will manifest. (ethnic cleansing, suppression and persecution of minorities, and war to name of few of the malignant side effects.)

 

[Jackhole]

Freedom of religion is not equal protection under the law. That's something that you really need to be a stickler about if you are risking a nationalist movement. If you don't maintain that, then the malignant side effects of nationalist movements will manifest. (ethnic cleansing, suppression and persecution of minorities, and war to name of few of the malignant side effects.)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha!! "Being able to discriminate against others for the 'wrong religion' isn't wrong, it's just cultural!"

Fantastic way to explain how Yazidis, Chaldeans, Baha'is, Jews and Christians have been 'lawfully' persecuted and cleansed from various areas across the Middle East.

 

[crossfire]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha!! "Being able to discriminate against others for the 'wrong religion' isn't wrong, it's just cultural!"

Fantastic way to explain how Yazidis, Chaldeans, Baha'is, Jews and Christians have been 'lawfully' persecuted and cleansed from various areas across the Middle East.

Was there Equal Protection under the Law there?

 

[Jackhole]

Was there Equal Protection under the Law there?

Yep.

Iraq dispossessed and banished 150,000 Jews between 1940-50.

1925 Constitution (Art. 6): "There shall be no differentiation in the rights of Iraqis before the law... whatever differences may exist in language, race or creed."

Libya seized all wealth from the remaining Jews and expelled their entire population after the 1967 war.

1951 Constitution (Art. 11): "Libyans shall be equal before the law... without distinction of religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship..."

Iran systematically denies Baháʼís rights to education, employment, and property because their faith is not officially recognized by the state's Islamic framework. This has been done from 1979 until now.

1979 Constitution (Art. 19): "All people of Iran... enjoy equal rights; color, race, language, and the like, do not bestow any privilege."

Syria during its Civil War employed state-aligned militias to engage in sectarian cleansing of Christians, Druze, and Alawites depending on the desired territory held.

1973 Constitution (Art. 25): "Citizens are equal before the law in their rights and duties... The state shall guarantee the principle of equal opportunity."

Turkey and the Armenian genocide / Greek expulsion + 10x tax on non-Muslims

1924 and 1982 Constitution (Art. 10): All individuals are equal without any discrimination before the law, irrespective of language, race, color, sex... religion and sect."

Etc.

But hey- Israel is soooo much worse and special, right? I wonder what's different?

 

[crossfire]

Yep.

Iraq dispossessed and banished 150,000 Jews between 1940-50.

1925 Constitution (Art. 6): "There shall be no differentiation in the rights of Iraqis before the law... whatever differences may exist in language, race or creed."

Libya seized all wealth from the remaining Jews and expelled their entire population after the 1967 war.

1951 Constitution (Art. 11): "Libyans shall be equal before the law... without distinction of religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship..."

Iran systematically denies Baháʼís rights to education, employment, and property because their faith is not officially recognized by the state's Islamic framework. This has been done from 1979 until now.

1979 Constitution (Art. 19): "All people of Iran... enjoy equal rights; color, race, language, and the like, do not bestow any privilege."

Syria during its Civil War employed state-aligned militias to engage in sectarian cleansing of Christians, Druze, and Alawites depending on the desired territory held.

1973 Constitution (Art. 25): "Citizens are equal before the law in their rights and duties... The state shall guarantee the principle of equal opportunity."

Turkey and the Armenian genocide / Greek expulsion + 10x tax on non-Muslims

1924 and 1982 Constitution (Art. 10): All individuals are equal without any discrimination before the law, irrespective of language, race, color, sex... religion and sect."

Etc.

But hey- Israel is soooo much worse and special, right? I wonder what's different?

That just makes me even more wary of Nationalist movements.

 

[Jackhole]

That just makes me even more wary of Nationalist movements.

I believe what you mean to say is, "Oops, I guess I didn't know what I was talking about, railing about lack of a 'equality under the law clause' in a constitution. Lesson learned."

The outsized amount of criticism regarding Israel is usually indicative of one specific thing, regarding the critic. I'd start there. Unless you want to do which countries are most misogynistic or homophobic in the Middle East...?

 

[crossfire]

I believe what you mean to say is, "Oops, I guess I didn't know what I was talking about, railing about lack of a 'equality under the law clause' in a constitution. Lesson learned."

I'll speak for myself, thank you.

The outsized amount of criticism regarding Israel is usually indicative of one specific thing, regarding the critic. I'd start there. Unless you want to do which countries are most misogynistic or homophobic in the Middle East...?

I'm more concerned with equal protection under the law.

 

[BrightShadow]

Yep.

Iraq dispossessed and banished 150,000 Jews between 1940-50.

1925 Constitution (Art. 6): "There shall be no differentiation in the rights of Iraqis before the law... whatever differences may exist in language, race or creed."

Libya seized all wealth from the remaining Jews and expelled their entire population after the 1967 war.

1951 Constitution (Art. 11): "Libyans shall be equal before the law... without distinction of religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship..."

Iran systematically denies Baháʼís rights to education, employment, and property because their faith is not officially recognized by the state's Islamic framework. This has been done from 1979 until now.

1979 Constitution (Art. 19): "All people of Iran... enjoy equal rights; color, race, language, and the like, do not bestow any privilege."

Syria during its Civil War employed state-aligned militias to engage in sectarian cleansing of Christians, Druze, and Alawites depending on the desired territory held.

1973 Constitution (Art. 25): "Citizens are equal before the law in their rights and duties... The state shall guarantee the principle of equal opportunity."

Turkey and the Armenian genocide / Greek expulsion + 10x tax on non-Muslims

1924 and 1982 Constitution (Art. 10): All individuals are equal without any discrimination before the law, irrespective of language, race, color, sex... religion and sect."

Etc.

But hey- Israel is soooo much worse and special, right? I wonder what's different?

Does Israel claim to be a democracy? Yes or no?

Is Israel a dictatorship or authoritarian government? If not then why compare with such nations?


Compare Israel with other democratic countries.

Comparing 5 types of bad examples (authoritarian governments) and trying to figure out which one is slightly better?

Discrimination against Arab citizens should not be defended in this manner. Your entire argument is based solely from a wrong premise. You are doing a poor job in defending.
By default you are admitting - there is no Equal Protection Under the Law clause. So I don’t need to even check.

 

[BrightShadow]

Does Israel claim to be a democracy? Yes or no?

Is Israel a dictatorship or authoritarian government? If not then why compare with such nations?


Compare Israel with other democratic countries.

Comparing 5 types of bad examples (authoritarian governments) and trying to figure out which one is slightly better?

Discrimination against Arab citizens should not be defended in this manner. Your entire argument is based solely from a wrong premise. You are doing a poor job in defending.
By default you are admitting - there is no Equal Protection Under the Law clause. So I don’t need to even check.

Now question is why US taxpayers money going to a country that doesn’t have equal protection for all citizens?

 

[crossfire]

Now question is why US taxpayers money going to a country that doesn’t have equal protection for all citizens?

Sending foreign aid to a government with this kind of internal governmental foundational void is not going to help fix any problems arising from that omission. It will just be a money pit--tossing money into the void will only enable the side effects to become more severe. It's not something that can be fixed with a bandage made of cash.

 

[icehorse]

Sending foreign aid to a government with this kind of internal governmental foundational void is not going to help fix any problems arising from that omission. It will just be a money pit--tossing money into the void will only enable the side effects to become more severe. It's not something that can be fixed with a bandage made of cash.

I might be misunderstanding you, so correct me if I'm wrong here: You appear to be strongly against nationalism, correct? If so, why would you focus your concerns on Israel? Most of the world is built on nationalism.

This is not to say nationalism is above reproach, far from it.

 

[crossfire]

I might be misunderstanding you, so correct me if I'm wrong here: You appear to be strongly against nationalism, correct? If so, why would you focus your concerns on Israel? Most of the world is built on nationalism.

This is not to say nationalism is above reproach, far from it.

I'm not anti-nationalist. A good case for nationalist movements might be from an area that was taken over by an imperial power in the past and now wants to be independent of the protectorate, and is capable of running itself independently. Since the side effects that can arise from nationalist movements can be so malevolent, (ethnic cleansing, suppression and persecution of minorities, war, etc,) one must be diligent in keeping the factors that give rise to these side effects in check. A firm commitment to Equal Protection under the law is one of the most important factors in this. You slip even a little in this commitment, and you are going to see those malevolent side effects arise such as ethnic cleansing and war.

I'm focusing on Israel so much simply because the US gives them so much foreign aid. See post #12 above for more.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not anti-nationalist. A good case for nationalist movements might be from an area that was taken over by an imperial power in the past and now wants to be independent of the protectorate, and is capable of running itself independently. Since the side effects that can arise from nationalist movements can be so malevolent, (ethnic cleansing, suppression and persecution of minorities, war, etc,) one must be diligent in keeping the factors that give rise to these side effects in check. A firm commitment to Equal Protection under the law is one of the most important factors in this. You slip even a little in this commitment, and you are going to see those malevolent side effects arise such as ethnic cleansing and war.

I'm focusing on Israel so much simply because the US gives them so much foreign aid. See post #12 above for more.

Thanks for the clarification.

For my money it strikes me that you might be making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Looking across the dozens of Muslims societies that surround Israel, Israel's record on human rights far, far, far, outstrip ALL of it's regional neighbors. Is it perfect, of course not. But one thing I notice about critics of Israel is that they never seem to include an honest assessment of what it's like to be surrounded by Islamists who have ceaselessly tried to destroy Israel for the last 80 years. To me, that environment must be taken into account when evaluating how Israel does statehood.

 

[Jackhole]

I'll speak for myself, thank you.

I'm more concerned with equal protection under the law.

Have some integrity then. You've been on this bizarro "equal protection under the law clause" rant for a few days now. I've already pointed out that Israel has no constitution. Then I pointed out that other countries in the region DO have constitutions and such clauses, and don't honor them (even less so than Israel). You keep this up, it looks like a specific and non-sensical anti-Israel animus.

 

[Jackhole]

Does Israel claim to be a democracy? Yes or no?

Yes. It's a democratic republic, with parliamentary democracy.

Is Israel a dictatorship or authoritarian government? If not then why compare with such nations?

See above. Its government holds regular elections, though I'd argue its parties are deeply entrenched, more like Japan, Singapore or Sweden, rather than the United States or Canada.

Compare Israel with other democratic countries.

Already done. There are considerably more individual freedoms in Israel. Compare it with all the other countries in the region and get back to me.

Comparing 5 types of bad examples (authoritarian governments) and trying to figure out which one is slightly better?

It's not an authoritarian government. See, when you simp for countries like Iran, your values don't align to what's in the real world.

Discrimination against Arab citizens should not be defended in this manner. Your entire argument is based solely from a wrong premise. You are doing a poor job in defending.

"Arab citizens" in Israel have more rights than in most other Middle East countries. Granting more rights, like Muslim conquest isn't really fair to the non-Muslims, if that's what you're getting at.

By default you are admitting - there is no Equal Protection Under the Law clause. So I don’t need to even check.

I've already stated this. Israel has no constitution, and recently asserted that multiple branches of its government have the right to supersede the 'Basic Laws' allegedly established. The country's freedoms for individuals are based solely upon the current parliament.

 

[crossfire]

Have some integrity then. You've been on this bizarro "equal protection under the law clause" rant for a few days now. I've already pointed out that Israel has no constitution. Then I pointed out that other countries in the region DO have constitutions and such clauses, and don't honor them (even less so than Israel). You keep this up, it looks like a specific and non-sensical anti-Israel animus.

I am of the opinion of that those who think Equal Protection under the Law is bizarro and do not want to commit to it and enforce it are only interested in propagating evil. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Jackhole]

I am of the opinion of that those who think Equal Protection under the Law is bizarro and do not want to commit to it and enforce it are only interested in propagating evil. Your mileage may vary.

It's only bizarro because of the way you're attempting to apply it. Israel, without a real constitution and zero guarantee of individual rights, actually applies more "equal protection under the law" than most countries and indeed- any country in the Middle East. This includes countries that have real constitutions and such clauses.

You keep talking about it, and "propagating evil" as though Israel is some big offender. It is not. And what's more: I've demonstrated how those other countries in the region are substantially worse at failing to provide equal protection under the law. You've been asked multiple times why you continue to selectively harp on Israel, and still you're silent on it. As I said, such explicit attention on Israel generally means only one thing.

 

[crossfire]

It's only bizarro because of the way you're attempting to apply it. Israel, without a real constitution and zero guarantee of individual rights, actually applies more "equal protection under the law" than most countries and indeed- any country in the Middle East. This includes countries that have real constitutions and such clauses.

You keep talking about it, and "propagating evil" as though Israel is some big offender. It is not. And what's more: I've demonstrated how those other countries in the region are substantially worse at failing to provide equal protection under the law. You've been asked multiple times why you continue to selectively harp on Israel, and still you're silent on it. As I said, such explicit attention on Israel generally means only one thing.

It's only bizarro because of the way you're attempting to apply it. Israel, without a real constitution and zero guarantee of individual rights, actually applies more "equal protection under the law" than most countries and indeed- any country in the Middle East. This includes countries that have real constitutions and such clauses.

You keep talking about it, and "propagating evil" as though Israel is some big offender. It is not. And what's more: I've demonstrated how those other countries in the region are substantially worse at failing to provide equal protection under the law. You've been asked multiple times why you continue to selectively harp on Israel, and still you're silent on it. As I said, such explicit attention on Israel generally means only one thing.

I'm not worried about comparing the other countries to Israel, as we do not give them the sort of foreign aid to them that we give to Israel.