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Is the Lie ever better?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Daemon Sophic, Aug 23, 2022.

  1. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    Currently, and throughout history, there are/have been many large, public Lies told to society. These are almost invariably presented by people who falsely believe that “they know better”, and/or by people who know they’re lying, but want something to change (or remain unchanged from) the way they like(d) it.

    Can any of you think of a situation, either currently or historically, wherein the Lie was actually better for people than having the public know the truth?

    —————————————————-

    Very roughly, moving backward in history, here are some examples….

    - Trump won the 2020 election.

    - Global Warming is either a lie, or there’s nothing to be done about it anyways.

    - John Kerry was not a decorated and honored Vietnam War veteran (the Swift Boaters we’re honest).

    - Meat eating is not bad for you.

    - Smoking isn’t bad for you.

    - That (race ________) is inferior to our (race _______) genetically/culturally/etc….

    - Jews are to blame for early 20th century Germany’s economic woes.

    - The South fought the North in the US Civil War for economic and/or self-defense reasons (not slavery).

    - There really are witches. They are evil. And they need to be killed. (Do not suffer witches amongst you)

    - Our religion (named ______) is better than your religion (named ________).

    —————————————————————


    Are there other BIG LIES that you can think of? Did they help humanity?





    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    CIA using unwitting citizens for drug mind control experiments in 1979.
     
  3. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    That's a very interesting thread.

    And this is one of the reasons why I think, as a Christian that God is Truth.
    Because God will answer all the unanswered questions, when I die.
    When I am in the afterlife
    In the afterlife there is no lying.
    No cover-up.
    The truth is visible anywhere.


    So...I was wondering about how the powerful control the Seigniorage Banking.
    In the afterlife everything will be exposed.


    Answering the question, I think people deserve the truth. Always.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Ah...by the way...I am a non-smoker not because I think it is unhealthy.
    I am a non-smoker because I don't like the smell of tabacco or anything else smokable.

    I drink too much espresso, which is not that healthy.
     
  5. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Splitting an atom is physically impossible.
     
  6. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I don't know of any actual lies which helped humanity. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I just can't think of any offhand.

    If I were to guess, one could argue that religion itself was concocted at some point, but it may have served a certain purpose in motivating people in a society or perhaps used as an organizing principle to elevate a society beyond stone knives and bearskins.

    Other lies might be deceptions to conceal secrets, which seems to be what Jack Nicholson's character was referring to in A Few Good Men in the gif you posted. He hints that he knows about things that ordinary Americans can't handle.

    But whether people can handle the truth or not, they might justify it by saying they're protecting "our way of life." Apart from that, many people may not want to know more than that. Some may not even care if they're being lied to, as long as they believe that their "way of life" is still being protected. And that may be the real lie behind the other lies.
     
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  7. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    [​IMG]

    Please, expand on your answer.
     
  8. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    I understand what your suggesting about how many people would rather not hear the truth, as often the old expression is correct….”the truth hurts.” But even though in some situations they may be temporarily happier with being lied to, I still feel that they would, in the long run, be better off being fully informed.

    Also, certainly there are secrets (military and espionage operations leaping first to mind) wherein details must be kept secret in order to 1 succeed, and 2 ever have hope working more than once. But I’m not so concerned about truths hidden, as I am about purposefully misleading the general populous into believing patent falsehoods. Capisce?
     
  9. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Einstein, after calculating the binding power of atoms, said that it was technically impossible to split atoms. As we know, that is false. We don't know if that really was a lie. But assume physicists had carried that falsehood (lie) on. Would we be better off without an arsenal of nuclear bombs that can eradicate humanity 20 times over?
     
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  10. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    That's very insightful.
    I think Truth is always a must. Because we are endowed with free will, and we can use knowledge for good purposes.
    Knowledge opens the doors to human evolution. Man ought to disclose any truth.
    As Dante said: "Consider your origin: you men were not made to live like brutes, but to pursue virtue and knowledge"
     
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  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Nuclear technology has saved vastly more lives then it has destroyed since its inception.
    And that's including the 2 bombs WW2 and every single nuclear accident - both big and small.

    Nuclear technology has many applications - many of them in the field of medicine.
    It also provides energy to households, allowing them to survive cold winters and such.

    Without medical application of nuclear technology, countless MILLIONS would have died.

    So no, we wouldn't have been better off. Not unless nations actually use their arsenal to eradicate humanity multiple times over. Which I don't think will ever happen.

    There are many crazy people in the world. Perhaps I am just optimistic, but I like to think that when push comes to shove, people will remain rational enough to not press the button - or to prevent a radically crazy person to push the button. Because to push that button, you'ld have to be radically crazy.

    Everybody knows that there will only be losers in a nuclear war. And the biggest loser will likely be the one who launches first.
     
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    True.

    Nuclear tech, as stated in my previous post, saved countless of lives through medical application.
    Yes, you can also use it to create unfathomable destructive bombs. That was a political choice.

    In essence, not different from how the knowledge to melt and manipulate iron was also used to upgrade army armor and swords and other weaponry.
    Even gunpowder... it's original use was not guns or other forms of weaponry at all.

    I'm having trouble coming up with a technology, or theoretical knowledge allowing for tech development, that can't be used for both good and bad.

    I can use my fork to feed my kid and I can also use it to pluck your eyes out.
     
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  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    This is valid for everything.
     
  14. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Medical applications don't require fission and the civil use of it is, at least, problematic.
    What would have happened is speculation but my speculation is that, if the same money that went into fission technology, would have been invested in clean energy and energy storage, we wouldn't have the same problems with global warming.
     
  15. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I took the cue from the Colonel Jessep gif you posted, as that was a military example. Fictional, yet still a commonly held view in our contemporary political culture.

    The common thread here is the belief in "protecting our way of life" as the overriding priority, even more important than truth itself. Col. Jessep might very easily embrace most or all of the examples of lies you posted in the OP and use the same justification. It doesn't make it right, but ultimately, that's the real lie we're dealing with.

    Just to use the first statement as an example, "Trump won the 2020 election." People who embrace this lie are not necessarily motivated by a genuine desire to know the true and accurate vote count in the election. They might say that, but it seems more obvious that they're just upset that their candidate lost. They don't care about the truth, or at least not that truth. It also seems clear that they believe that Trump would be better for the protection of their way of life, which is a justification similar to one that might be proffered by our friend Col. Jessep.
     
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  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Fission is just one aspect of nuclear technology.
    The very same basis, the theories that underpin all those technologies, gave rise to plenty of nuclear applications - one of which is medicine.

    With that theoretical knowledge you can build such medical tech, or you can build nukes or you can build nuclear power stations, etc.

    Also, I'ld like to add that I feel like much of the scare that people have about nuclear power is not that rational. You say "nuclear power plant" and people immediatly go to horror like "tjernobyl" or "fukushima" etc.

    New generation nuclear power stations are a lot safer and produce a lot less waste. And they are as "green" as they come as it is 0 carbon emissions. Spend fuel surely is a problem, but not so much in the modern designs as in the old designs.

    I'm totally fine with new nuclear power plants.

    If we are talking budget though....
    Just look at what it costs the US, for example, annually just to maintain their nuclear arsenal.
    And that's ignoring the research and development costs from practically a century of nuke building.
    Just the budget for 1 year already would mean the world if it got invested in "clean" energy sources.

    I have no problem with nuclear tech at all. As with all tech, it's a matter of what you do with it. You can use it for good purposes or you can use it for destructive purposes.
     
  17. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Coup, where the Democrat Party, Hi Tech, Mass Media, Rino Republicans, bureaucratic state, the FBI and CIA, and some foreign nationals, conspired to overthrow a dually elected President based on a Hillary Clinton lie? Nobody was ever punished, even though there were many victims of that lie; General Flynn. They never would have touched Flynn after the Mueller Report. But before he was a prop to give the lie credibility.

    It is hard for some to believe this same group of conspirators would not use cheating to win in 2020, since they were very good at that and got away with it. Also Trump was ready to get even. The Hunter Biden Story was buried as Russian Disinformation, which was the same chant as the Russian collusion coup. This truth would have made a big difference since Biden could not just hide and let handlers speak for him. That was cheating with an investigation into that truth still being stalled by the conspirators.

    How come there was never any independent investigation into the 2020 election cheating claims, like a Mueller style investigation that Trump agreed to have to prove his innocents? If this election was all fair, such an investigation would have had the same affect as Mueller, which was to deflate the conspiracy mongers. No Democrat still sings the Russian Collusion song.

    Why didn't the Democrats prove their innocence with A Mueller Investigation to get rid of Trump and his supporters once and for all? One answer is they could not risk an investigation, that was not partisan, since they could not spin that away. We may need to wait until after the midterm for these needed investigations to settle this once and for all.

    If you feel Trump and his supporters are lying about the 2020 election encourage an independent investigation so this can all end and go away like the collusion delusion. Avoiding such an investigation smells of guilt and coverup. This may happen once and for all if the Midterms go Republican. If the election fraud was a lie then the Republicans will stomp their own foot. Encourage the investigation of the innocent party. Don't keep the Trump conspiracy alive by running away from such investigations.
     
  18. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    If there are those who wish to investigate it further, I have no problems with that. It seems that they've had plenty of opportunities to present their evidence. There's been court cases in multiple states. Nobody should be running away from any investigations, and I've always called for total government transparency in all things.

    I thought the Russian interference charges in 2016 were pretty lame actually. Not that I didn't believe it, but the same people complaining about it have been the same people who set up the system to be bought and sold to the highest bidder. So, when some outside entity comes in with a bag of money and skews their game, they cry foul about it.
     
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  19. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    The only situation that I can think of is played out in deep impact. The earth is at risk of being destroyed. If you tell people they will panic, loot, go psyco etc. Not sharing this reduced human suffering.

    As a rule the big lies cause harm.
     
  20. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    [​IMG]
     
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