Is the Demiurge alive, or active?

[ELoWolfe]

I was contemplating a lot on my drive in to work and the story of Cain and Abel came to mind, for no reason.

But it got me thinking about the Word, Craftsman and Adversary. What role does each have in history and now.

He may be dead. I can not say when this happened (before Christ, during or after). But this idea comes to the story of Cain and Abel as described before. As we know, spoilers, Cain kills Abel but then Adam and Eve are granted a third son Seth. Seth is, by all accounts, a model man.

Seth could be seen as a prototype of the Christ, and it isn't too hard to see Cain as a prototype of the Adversary. Although Abel is said to also be a prototype of the Christ (Abel/Christ is killed by Cain/Adversary, to give way to Seth/Risen Christ), could Abel not also count as the Craftsman? Seth is holy while Cain is unholy, leaving Abel to be a sort of "middle ground." The Craftsman could also be seen (said by some) as a "middle ground" deity - one who is motivated by justice but lacking in love.

But then who speaks to Job? I wonder if Job is a turning point for the Craftsman who, until that point, did lack the necessary insight to love (and understand) humanity. Jung claims that is a turning point for God. The Adversary is present here as well.

Further, Ptolemy claims that the centurion Jesus helps is the Craftsman. "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it." By submitting to the Christ, the Craftsman would have finally seen the power of the Father and no longer views himself as the sole god.

Could then the thieves be a return to Cain, Abel and Seth? Could the mocking thief be the Adversary who continues to ignore the Christ (even committing him to death) while the Craftsman is the repentant and believing thief, who Jesus says will be with him in Paradise (the Pleroma)?

This could be the fabled rebellion that John speaks of in Revelation, when the dragon takes a third of the stars. The Adversary arranges for the Craftsman/Centurion to die, becoming the "God of this world," as John and Paul state.

Or it could be silly thoughts. The Craftsman could still be active in the world.

 

[nazz]

I don't much concern myself with the question of whether or not the Archons are conscious entities out there. It's enough that archontic power structures still exist all over this world. They are expressions of the Archons in my view.

 

[ELoWolfe]

Thank you, nazz, for taking time out to reply to my posts. This section of the forum is silent and attempts to introduce new topics have not been fruitful. There are few places that seem to offer real conversation of Gnosticism, especially of the "root" faith and not mixed with new age philosophy. I remember Palm Tree Garden years ago, but they seem to have been uprooted.

Again, thank you.

 

[nazz]

Thank you, nazz, for taking time out to reply to my posts. This section of the forum is silent and attempts to introduce new topics have not been fruitful. There are few places that seem to offer real conversation of Gnosticism, especially of the "root" faith and not mixed with new age philosophy. I remember Palm Tree Garden years ago, but they seem to have been uprooted.

Again, thank you.

My pleasure. I wish it were more active here as well. But I guess it is better than nothing.

 

[Bunny]

I saw this post earlier, but wasn't sure how to respond. I'll give it a shot now.

Yes, the Demiurge is alive and well. His archons are, too. Just look around you if you're not sure.

As for the rest of your post, I think you and I come from such different points of view that I'm not sure how to approach it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it does make discussion a little harder! :sorry1:

 

[ELoWolfe]

That is entirely possible. There are such varieties in Gnosticism that it is difficult to make one encompassing arch with it.

I fully believe the Archons are active. That goes without a doubt. I just wondered if they're ruled by a "God of Justice" or the Adversary. Which would mean they would have to be two individual beings. Paul and John, as mentioned before, say that the world was given over to the Adversary.

 

[nazz]

That is entirely possible. There are such varieties in Gnosticism that it is difficult to make one encompassing arch with it.

I fully believe the Archons are active. That goes without a doubt. I just wondered if they're ruled by a "God of Justice" or the Adversary. Which would mean they would have to be two individual beings. Paul and John, as mentioned before, say that the world was given over to the Adversary.

In the OT, the Adversary appears in the heavenly assembly of the Great Archon. In the NT, the two are fused into one as I see it. This is understandable when we consider that "Satan" is not a proper name in Scripture per se but a title.

 

[ELoWolfe]

That was part of my thoughts. Satan is first subservient to the Craftsman, then he (possibly) strikes out on his own, and then comes to rule the world.

It made me wonder if there was a "rebellion in heaven," as the mythology of Lucifer attests (only it didn't happen at the Garden but instead at the life/death of Jesus), or if the Craftsman then abdicated his throne. It certainly seems that the Adversary, once a fellow Archon, became the chief Archon somehow.

But of course this is if we speak that the Adversary and the Craftsman are two people. If they're the same person, then this is moot.

 

[Bunny]

I think they're two different beings. However, I don't know that I take the Demiurge's word for it that Lucifer/Satan/whoever is evil. I just think that the Demiurge was enough of an egomaniac that he needed an opponent of some sort to rally his people around or whatever, so he created the devil. In my head, the jury's still out on whose side the devil's on, though--the Demiurge's, the Unknown Father's, or his own.

 

[ELoWolfe]

Well the Adversary wasn't "originally" evil, per se. At least not how he was understood.

I may be willing to believe that the Craftsman never "reformed," so to say, and instead of embracing the Christ instead became the Satan then. The original Satan could have been deemed "evil" because he did embrace the Father. I remember one mythology that the Craftsman had a son which accepted the Christ, but I can not find it at all. I thought it was Abraxas, but I don't think so.

 

[Bunny]

Well the Adversary wasn't "originally" evil, per se. At least not how he was understood.

I may be willing to believe that the Craftsman never "reformed," so to say, and instead of embracing the Christ instead became the Satan then. The original Satan could have been deemed "evil" because he did embrace the Father. I remember one mythology that the Craftsman had a son which accepted the Christ, but I can not find it at all. I thought it was Abraxas, but I don't think so.

Sabaoth, I think, was the archon who went with the Aeon Zoe and accepted Christ. Don't hold me to it, though.

 

[nazz]

That was part of my thoughts. Satan is first subservient to the Craftsman, then he (possibly) strikes out on his own, and then comes to rule the world.

It made me wonder if there was a "rebellion in heaven," as the mythology of Lucifer attests (only it didn't happen at the Garden but instead at the life/death of Jesus), or if the Craftsman then abdicated his throne. It certainly seems that the Adversary, once a fellow Archon, became the chief Archon somehow.

But of course this is if we speak that the Adversary and the Craftsman are two people. If they're the same person, then this is moot.

I see what you are saying. It's an interesting idea. Who knows?

 

[ELoWolfe]

Sabaoth, I think, was the archon who went with the Aeon Zoe and accepted Christ. Don't hold me to it, though.

Thank you for verifying there was that myth. I couldn't find it again, and it is good to know I wasn't insane.

 

[Bunny]

Thank you for verifying there was that myth. I couldn't find it again, and it is good to know I wasn't insane.

You're welcome! And you're not insane at all. I kinda half-remembered because I've read the story recently. It's in the Secret Book of John, maybe? Again, don't hold me to that. My memory's gotten bad in my old age.

ETA: It was bugging me, so I looked it up. The story (or one version of it, anyhow) is in The Hypostasis of the Archons. Told you my memory was terrible.

 

[ELoWolfe]

As I spent time thinking (in the best place to do so: the shower), I thought of the effect a son leaving would have on a father. Could it be that the Craftsman became the Adversary when the original son Sabaoth left? Since Sabaoth means "army," it makes even more sense that he was the Centurion that Christ healed. "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me." Sabaoth worked for the Craftman, while being the "Host of Armies" for him.

It could also be Sabaoth who was dying with Christ on the cross. The third thief, the mocking one, reminds me of the scripture the Craftsman says: "So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you." (2 Chron 18:22) After rejecting the offer of being the messiah (see other post of mine for that theory), the act of Sabaoth would be traitorous. Since the Craftsman doesn't want others to follow the Christ, he put a deceiving spirit on the cross with Christ and his son.

I don't know, then, who the "adversary" was with the Craftsman in Job. I know it was a title, so it could have been a number of beings. Just now, it seems that the Craftsman, who was one just a God of Justice, is also an Adversary (to those who truly know the Light). He wouldn't be an adversary to the orthodox, who has since given themselves up to him. For example: It is clear that the Craftsman was working against Light-Bearers, such as the Cathars, through the Catholic Church and the powers of Kings that be (as he is prone to do).

 

[DanielR]

what about Carl Jung's idea that the ego is the demiurge, while the unconscious is Bythos? I actually like this idea, so I would say yes the demiurge is still active

 

[nazz]

what about Carl Jung's idea that the ego is the demiurge, while the unconscious is Bythos? I actually like this idea, so I would say yes the demiurge is still active

Certainly as metaphorical archetypes that works.