Is the bible historically accurate?

[noob]

... i would say that it was designed.

Try and imagine you are back in the first century, you would find many people who believe in a man called Jesus but most of them have different beliefs about who or what Jesus was.
Small groups of people begin to take shape, people with similar views of who Jesus was. These groups then start writing texts about Jesus, some of them write biographical gospels, others collate sayings attributed to Jesus, still others write pure mythology centred on Jesus. We end up with various groups who all call themselves Christian but have very different beliefs and use very different religious texts.

Now skip forward to the second century, we have one group that stands out from the others as it is the largest and most organised. This group of people share a common set of beliefs, that Jesus was the son of God, that he died and was resurrected, and that by believing in his sacrifice and resurrection they will receive eternal reward.

This group collected together those texts that supported their view of Jesus, rejecting the vast majority of what had been written. They chose four similar gospels and several letters which supported their Christology, eventually one apocalyptic text was chosen to complete the canon.
This carefully constructed new testament canon portrays Jesus in a specific manner and delivers a specific message. With the addition of the Jewish Tanach we get todays Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible is the template for one form of Christianity, all other literature is declared heretical and other Christian religions are supressed and eventually destroyed - the Bible becomes the only source for Christians and Christian converts, the orthodox form of Christianity becomes the only form of Christianity avaliable. - Halcyon

Hey Halcyon... Try and imagine this! You and a group of 11 people just "designed" a religion. Hell, one of you betrayed the deity that you designed, and later committed suicide because of the guilt. You all write your designed testimonies, trying to convince people that your deity exists, and should be worshiped.

Than later on you die for your designed story, and your designed deity, even though you profit nothing from it, and gain only death. Death and enormous pain...

 

[Smoke]

My reasoning is that, If the bible is the only source that speaks of Jesus, than it is highly possible that "Christians" made up the figure of Jesus, as well as "designed" a religion, and that Jesus Christ is a fictional character of the gospels. Basically, If Jesus appears in books only written by Christians, than it is likely that they made him up.

Not necessarily. There's no logical reason why a factual person could not appear only in books written by Christians.

First of all, the 4 gospels were written by different authors. It can be suggested that they got together and thought up 4 stories that told the same story, accurately, and without discrepancy.

There are plenty of discrepancies, and even a passing familiarity with the canonical gospels ought to make that clear.

But we have secular authors who also refer to Jesus Christ!

Indeed we have, if by "secular" you mean non-Christian. But we have no contemporary accounts of Jesus by either Christians or non-Christians, and no later eyewitness accounts, either.

Here is my proof. Please. Shake my foundations.

What have you proven? That Jesus existed? Not interested in shaking your foundations; I believe Jesus existed, too, though not for the reasons you put forth. However, I don't believe everything the gospels say about him, or much of anything at all that modern Christians say about him, and you haven't given me any reason at all to reconsider my position.

 

[Smoke]

Hey Halcyon... Try and imagine this! You and a group of 11 people just "designed" a religion. Hell, one of you betrayed the deity that you designed, and later committed suicide because of the guilt. You all write your designed testimonies, trying to convince people that your deity exists, and should be worshiped.

Than later on you die for your designed story, and your designed deity, even though you profit nothing from it, and gain only death. Death and enormous pain...

1) Are you suggesting that 11 apostles wrote accounts of Jesus, and were later martyred? What are the specific accounts they wrote? What is the historical evidence that they were martyred?

2) Are you suggesting that martyrdom is proof, or even evidence, of the truth of a religion? Why?

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

Hell, one of you betrayed the deity that you designed, and later committed suicide because of the guilt.

Widely disputed if Judas actually betrayed Jesus or just carried out Jesus' orders and most likely didn't commit suicide, but was ex communicated by the other disciples and retired to write his gospel and possibly spread jesus' word in other parts of the world.

Where are there references other than in the Bible that the disciples were killed for proselytation?

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

Indeed we have, if by "secular" you mean non-Christian. But we have no contemporary accounts of Jesus by either Christians or non-Christians, and no later eyewitness accounts, either.

although josephus was born 3 years after jesus' death in jersualem. pretty damn close to hear of him from his fellow jews.

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

Midnight blue.

why do you believe jesus existed then?

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

noob halycon isn't saying that jesus was designed or even his message just the design of the bible, not of the religion.

 

[noob]

i see.. than i admit my mistake.
i am after all, a noob.

 

[noob]

There are plenty of discrepancies, and even a passing familiarity with the canonical gospels ought to make that clear.

Please prove/cite the discrepanices.

 

[noob]

many believe that many of the apostles were martyred. I admit that I don't know exactly the references..
Does anybody have any knowledge of the life of the apostles after Jesus was ressurected?

 

[noob]

Please cite the discrepancies, Midnight Blue.

 

[Smoke]

why do you believe jesus existed then?

I have a number of reasons for believing that Jesus existed, but for me the most conclusive bit of evidence is that Paul referred to his adversary James as "the Lord's brother." It seems unlikely that Paul would have granted James such credentials unless James was in fact known to be be Jesus' brother.

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

are you refering the pauls letters to the church in the bible?

 

[Smoke]

Please cite the discrepancies, Midnight Blue.

No. There are a great many, and they are readily apparent to anyone who reads the canonical gospels attentively. For those who are too lazy to read the gospels, there are a multitude of books and websites on the subject, most of which make unconvincing attempt to show that the discrepancies and contradictions can be reconciled. I'm disinclined to do your homework for you, and equally disinclined to play the game of proof and counterproof, which always ends up with some Christian "proving" the gospels by suggesting that Peter betrayed Jesus not three times but six.

 

[Smoke]

are you refering the pauls letters to the church in the bible?

I'm referring to Paul's letter to the Galatians.

 

[JerryL]

Can you site key stories that can be proven without any question?

I don't know that there are entire stories which can be entirely validated externally. Certainly, though, many factual statements regarding people and places are accurate. There is a Jerusealm, the ruler of Judea under Rome was Pilate, There was a church in Corenth, etc.

First of all, the 4 gospels were written by different authors. It can be suggested that they got together and thought up 4 stories that told the same story, accurately, and without discrepancy.

Name them.

Mark is considered to be written by a deciple of Peter. and simply repeats peter's story in a different language. Luke is written by Timothy, a deciple of Paul. Neither one of them claims to have been an eyewitness to any of the events. John writes his gospel last, and in specific response to the previous gospels.

Josephus was a First Century Jewish Historian who wrote about Jerusalem.

Josephus, who writes of chariots in the sky (you don't believe that I suspect) and who did not believe that the messiah had come (he was a jew), wrote of Christian beliefs. Further, his most supporting comment is widely held to be inserted by later Christian authors.

Here is my proof. Please. Shake my foundations.

Done.

 

[JerryL]

I have a number of reasons for believing that Jesus existed, but for me the most conclusive bit of evidence is that Paul referred to his adversary James as "the Lord's brother." It seems unlikely that Paul would have granted James such credentials unless James was in fact known to be be Jesus' brother.

This implies one of two things:

Paul believed that there had been a Jesus and that James was his brother (with whatever meaning that word carried)

or

Paul was propogating or creating the mythology of the Christian faith which included, at that time, the belief that James was Jesus's brother.

Certainly Paul could not have risen to the power he weilded by disputing as lies the claims of the founders of the religion.

 

[logician]

Many of Paul's books were not written by the SUpposed Paul, and yes, we don't even know for sure if Paul existed.

Whoever Paul was, he had never heard of the supposed earthly CHrist.

Check out

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

 

[James the Persian]

many believe that many of the apostles were martyred. I admit that I don't know exactly the references..
Does anybody have any knowledge of the life of the apostles after Jesus was ressurected?

All of the Apostles but St. John the Divine were martyred (and even he was exiled at one point). John eventually died of old age in Ephesus (roughly modern Selcuk in Turkey) where he is buried somewhere under the ruins of the basilica bearing his name. Do you have any Apostles in particular whose martyrdoms you wish to know about?

James

 

[JerryL]

How about Matthew? Various traditions had Matthew preaching in places as far flung as Ethiopia, Persia, Parthia, Isidore, and Macedonia. The traditions relate preposterous accounts of attempts that were made to kill him, which he, like John, miraculously escaped from. In one tradition, a jealous king tried to have Matthew burned alive, but the flames flew out, took the form of a dragon, and curled around the king.

There are few apostles that can even be validated to have existed by historical record (I believe we can support Peter, John, and James).