Is Marriage God Given?

[Darkdale]

Assuming that marriage is something which humans evolved to do (rather than being god given), why is there a tendency in so many religions to see marriage as god given? Why do so many people want god to sanction their marriages?

To give a greater meaning to it all.... too many people use their gods and their religions to give meaning to their lives that isn't there and fail to see the beauty and sacredness of the natural world that lies before them.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Does the institution of marriage come from God or from humans?

I would argue that it comes from humans. But what do you think?

(I've started this thread here because the question was getting us off topic in another thread)

Is life G-d given?

 

[Pah]

Assuming that marriage is something which humans evolved to do (rather than being god given), why is there a tendency in so many religions to see marriage as god given? Why do so many people want god to sanction their marriages?

Two comments -
That seems to ignore the arranged marriage where Father (or king or lord of the castle) picks the mate.

and second, it is hardly surprising since so many mundane things and events are "God" given in some minds. Grace before meals is one example, completley ignoring the "bread winner" and the labor of the agriculturist.

 

[Darkdale]

Two comments -
That seems to ignore the arranged marriage where Father (or king or lord of the castle) picks the mate.

and second, it is hardly surprising since so many mundane things and events are "God" given in some minds. Grace before meals is one example, completley ignoring the "bread winner" and the labor of the agriculturist.

That's one thing that's kind of cool about Asatru. We give thanks to whomever bought, killed, prepared our food. We'll boast for them so that the gods will appreciate their deeds, instead of attributing their deeds to the gods.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I found something very interesting. In the New Testament, every use of the word 'marriage' is translated from one of two Greek words, one means to give away in marriage, or become married, and the other word means the 'ceremony' around the coming together of two people. Ok that is not out of the ordinary, what I found was that in the Old Testament, the word 'marriage' is translated from the following Hebrew words

Ex 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. (ownah-cohabitation, conjugal rights)

Ps 78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage. (Halal-

1. to shine
   1. (Qal) to shine (fig. of God's favour)
   2. (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2. to praise, boast, be boastful
   1. (Qal)
      1. to be boastful
      2. boastful ones, boasters (participle)
   2. (Piel)
      1. to praise
      2. to boast, make a boast
   3. (Pual)
      1. to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
   4. (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one's boast
   5. (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
   6. (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman

 

[Popeyesays]

Does the institution of marriage come from God or from humans?

I would argue that it comes from humans. But what do you think?

(I've started this thread here because the question was getting us off topic in another thread)

I think the desire for union with another is so great within humanity that God must have meant it to be one of the essentials of our spiritual life.

That said, the laws of marriage are mutable. Different societies, peoples, eras, politics, language demand different laws.

God prescribes marriage laws in all of the religions of God, however, each time it is defined and regulated differently owing to the differences in the societies of the time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Bea Ond]

If marriage is given by God, who is to say who God has given it to? Is it possible, as I believe, that God has given love to all who will accept it?

In a free society should we not allow people to decide for themselves if marriage is of God or of Man? And should we not have the freedom to live according to our beliefs?

 

[Scott1]

If marriage is given by God, who is to say who God has given it to?

Well, some of us believe God left some folks in charge to clear up "stuff" like this.

Is it possible, as I believe, that God has given love to all who will accept it?

Amen.... but marriage (to me at least) is more than just love.

In a free society should we not allow people to decide for themselves if marriage is of God or of Man?

Sure... the rule of law has nothing to do with our personal perceptions.

And should we not have the freedom to live according to our beliefs?

What about human sacrifice... sex with children.... etc etc.... freedom is more about what the individual wants... as history has shown, some people view their personal freedom as license to cause harm to others. Society has norms of behavior, just because some might not be pleasant to your belief system does not mean that we can toss them out.

 

[Bea Ond]

What about human sacrifice... sex with children.... etc etc.... freedom is more about what the individual wants... as history has shown, some people view their personal freedom as license to cause harm to others. Society has norms of behavior, just because some might not be pleasant to your belief system does not mean that we can toss them out.

Fine, fair enough. Of course I should have asked “And should we not have the freedom to live according to our beliefs as long as it harms no one?" But I think it was obvious from the context that I was talking about marriage, not human sacrifice.

And I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not intend to compare the marriage of two consenting adults (gay or straight) to sex with children.

 

[Pah]

Well, some of us believe God left some folks in charge to clear up "stuff" like this.

And some know otherwise. The fact of living in the United States is that it is the majority of the members of the Supreme Court, interpretating precedent, who have the final say.

...
What about human sacrifice... sex with children.... etc etc.... freedom is more about what the individual wants... as history has shown, some people view their personal freedom as license to cause harm to others.

That litnay was a strawman/red herring the first time we heard it. Rights become freedoms in line with the principle of reciposity.

Society has norms of behavior, just because some might not be pleasant to your belief system does not mean that we can toss them out.

Our society recognizes behaviors within an acceptible range (specified by constitutional, secular law). I'm sure that all Christian behaviors are acceptible including those of the homosexual Christian. But please remember that a freedom practised by a few is more a privilege than a universal American freedom. It's not a freedom until all have it.

In a free society should we not allow people to decide for themselves if
marriage is of God or of Man? And should we not have the freedom to live
according to our beliefs?

An unequivicable yes to both querstions

 

[Scott1]

Fine, fair enough. Of course I should have asked “And should we not have the freedom to live according to our beliefs as long as it harms no one?" But I think it was obvious from the context that I was talking about marriage, not human sacrifice.

The devil is in the details, as they say..... but your definition of what "harm" is might be different than mine.

And I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not intend to compare the marriage of two consenting adults (gay or straight) to sex with children.

Oh... I did.... but not in the way you fear.... I just like to point out that "consenting" and "adult" are standards that not every society would agree with.

Pah<-------- Ignored. Sorry.

 

[robtex]

What I have taken from this thread more than anything is my personal desire to keep my marriage, if I were to have one, secular. At this point a marriage through the Justice of the peace seems to be the reasonable option for this atheist given the insight I have gotten on this thread.

If God's gift comes with rules, stipulations manipulatory behavior on how I can define my relationship with a woman I fancy he can have his gift back. At first religious ceremony was a neutral notion to me but since has become a negative notion for me.

With constraints on whom, where, when and why I marry coming from God the price tag he puts on his gift is a little to steep for me espcially against the backdrop that in essence God is asking me to put his/her needs over my wifes which to me is unacceptable given my emotional committment I would want and need to give to my partner. In short God's needs would come in a distant second to the needs of my wife and my marriage.

 

[michel]

And some know otherwise. The fact of living in the United States is that it is the majority of the members of the Supreme Court, interpretating precedent, who have the final say.
That litnay was a strawman/red herring the first time we heard it. Rights become freedoms in line with the principle of reciposity.Our society recognizes behaviors within an acceptible range (specified by constitutional, secular law). I'm sure that all Christian behaviors are acceptible including those of the homosexual Christian. But please remember that a freedom practised by a few is more a privilege than a universal American freedom. It's not a freedom until all have it.An unequivicable yes to both querstions

Good post Pah,

Do you feel punished Maize?

~Victor

Maize has answered this question for herself, Victor, but it greatly saddened me when I saw it today.

I am really surprised that you should ask it. If I was homosexual, right now, I think I would be one of the most angry people in the World. As a Christian, we are all children of God; we all have (depending from which part of the world we come from) different hardships to go through in life. We accept those.

I think that the ethiopian child born in misery, to an undernourished Mother, with little chance of making it to adulthood has a 'burden' put upon him/her - but he/she probably doesn't realize it. That's not an excuse; what I think that means is, that we, who come from nice warm homes, have a duty to help the poor, the sick, the hungry. It ought to be a natural response in us to help these people.

It doesn't happen theough, does it ? - Oh yes, we dig our hands in our pockets, with regularity, and then look away from the TV screen when they pan in on these people next time - besides, it's someone else's problem (we have done our bit, and given money to charity). OK, so the rescue system doesn't work properly, for a variety of reasons, but at least we try.

Next to our own comfy plush homes (I know that isn't everyone in the West, but there should be no excuse to be needy - we technically have a welfare state that should take care of this, in toto) ; sure we have our own crosses to bear, we live in a pressurized society, where stress and consumer needs are our problems.

How would you feel, had you been born, with a 'difference' from others - such as homosexuality ? how would you feel, surrounded by heterosexuals, all telling you that you are a pervert, that you are distgusting, that you should be denied the only type of love that you can feel ? - relegated to loneliness, to being treated as someone to avoid, refused the same legal protection that would be afforded to every Heterosexual if you enter into a 'sinful' relationship with another of your kind ?

I am not aiming this all specifically at you Victor - you are the poor butt of this, because you posed a question to Maize the answer to which I would have thought anyone (especially a Christian) would have realized what the only reply could be; this is aimed at every single anty Gay person. Put yourself in their shoes, and think how you would feel, Please.

 

[robtex]

As a further footnote, for those theist who believe God granted free will and man has the choice to follow or not follow God wouldn't legistation of such be an infringement of God's gift of free will?

 

[Scott1]

As a further footnote, for those theist who believe God granted free will and man has the choice to follow or not follow God wouldn't legistation of such be an infringement of God's gift of free will?

Great question Rob... I'll give this one a shot.

Christ reveals, first and foremost, that the frank and open acceptance of truth is the condition for authentic freedom: "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (Jn 8:32).

"Freedom", at least to Roman Catholics, is not the ability or power to do whatever one wants irrespective of laws or anything in opposition to the desire of the person....

Human freedom and God's law are not in opposition; on the contrary, they appeal one to the other. The follower of Christ knows that his vocation is to freedom. "You were called to freedom, brethren" (Gal 5:13), proclaims the Apostle Paul with joy and pride. But he immediately adds: "only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another" (ibid.). The firmness with which the Apostle opposes those who believe that they are justified by the Law has nothing to do with man's "liberation" from precepts. On the contrary, the latter are at the service of the practice of love: "For he who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the Law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself " (Rom 13:8-9).

Hope that helps.
Scott

From :
Veritatis Splendor

Encyclical Regarding Certain Fundamental Questions of the Church's Moral Teaching
His Holiness Pope John Paul II

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02vs.htm

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I knew within minutes of meeting my wife that we would marry. The next day I told her, and she thought the same. within six months we were married.
I am sure God has a hand in it somewhere, He is not just an onlooker.
If you take your vows and marry before God he is there to bless you.

Terry_______________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Bea Ond]

The devil is in the details, as they say..... but your definition of what "harm" is might be different than mine.

That is the heart of the issue isn’t it? Go ahead, make you case that same sex marriage does harm? (and don’t tell me that I need to make a case that it does not do harm, we do not ask heterosexuals to prove their marriage will not harm society before we allow it)

I just like to point out that "consenting" and "adult" are standards that not every society would agree with.

What standard would you recommend? Would the standard for “consenting” and “adult” be different for heterosexual than they would be for homosexual?

 

[Scott1]

Go ahead, make you case that same sex marriage does harm? (and don’t tell me that I need to make a case that it does not do harm, we do not ask heterosexuals to prove their marriage will not harm society before we allow it)

No thanks.... I've come to realize that some people can't have a civilized discussion about this topic....

I responded to your assertion that:

And should we not have the freedom to live according to our beliefs?

... and I think it should be clear to everyone that some people find subjectivism, utilitarianism and relativism appear not merely as pragmatic attitudes or patterns of behaviour, but rather as approaches having a basis in theory and claiming full cultural and social legitimacy..... and I, DO NOT.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

 

[michel]

I knew within minutes of meeting my wife that we would marry. The next day I told her, and she thought the same. within six months we were married.
I am sure God has a hand in it somewhere, He is not just an onlooker.
If you take your vows and marry before God he is there to bless you.

Terry_______________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Strange Terry, the same happened with me. Within minutes of meeting my wife something 'clicked' in my mind; we had agreed to go out for a meal together (our first proper 'date') . Every restaurant we went to was full; we ended up in a small restaurant near my parent's house - and yes, my parents had decided to go out themselves because I was, and they were at that restaurant, we joined them.

That first evening, my wife's Mum told her daughter "That's the guy you will marry". We became engaged within a month of meeting, and arranged to marry the following spring.

I started looking for a house for us and we exchange contracts in October; I said to Marie "There is no point in paying a mortgage for six months for nothing; why not marry now ?" - we were married in November, neaar enough six months after first meeting.

 

[Bea Ond]

No thanks.... I've come to realize that some people can't have a civilized discussion about this topic

I think that is very sad. I have also experienced many rude and crude people when talking about issues like this, but I would like to assure you that I could talk about it civilly. I don’t expect you to believe me and I respect your choice not to go further, I just had to say that.

And still I find it very troubling that you have no compunction against implying that a certain segment of society is doing harm, and yet refuse to back that up because you don’t wish to get into an uncivil conversation.