Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Saint Frankenstein]

How I am a bigot for not being attracted to a trassexual under the notion that I still have a mental picture of once was a man? This has nothing to do with me befriending or sharing a meal with someone who is transsexual, this has to do with my preferences of whom I'm attracted to. Before you throw the bigot word out, read what people write first. Besides, you're a Catholic, you have no room to talk. Catholicism is filled with pedophilia, racism, sexism, and the list goes on. Still to this day women cannot be priest because of an arbitrary rule. So please stop being a pot calling the kettle black.

Don't you dare try to deflect from the issue at hand by bringing religion bashing into it. I'm not responding to that crap here.

You are a bigot because you are treating trans women as less than women. If you are simply not attracted to someone, that's fine but you're going beyond that.

 

[Penumbra]

Penumbra see your points in Bold

As a reference, he's a primer on the multi-quote feature.

No. But disclosing being infertile is insignificant if the initial basis of a relationship is casual sex or "friends with benefits." Unless the parameters of the relationship is defined which includes fertility, this piece of information is insignificant.

So it's the same for trans people in the context of the OP, but you brought it up.

"Safety" in your case is quite subjective. Perhaps you prefer reckless sex without protection?

Certainly financial safety. Safety against accidentally changing the course of one's life in a way that one would seriously not prefer, such as with an unexpected pregnancy with a casual partner.

The point is, infertility is practically irrelevant for casual sex other than perhaps saying that at least that's one less risk.

So does dishonesty. There have been numerous reports of murders where transsexuals withheld information of their sex and upon finding out the person (pursuing the transsexual sexually) became psychologically unstable and ends up killing the person

Yeah, so it harmed them, not the other person (like your example of spreading an STD implies). That kind of thing can happen even during the disclosure of being trans, before any sex.

Ok majority. I hardly know anyone in my circle, indirectly in my circle or outside my circle that would be with a transsexual person. I even asked this question at work today and unanimously all the men said no they wouldn't because as I've said, the mental picture of what was once a man still is embedded in the mind of the person.

Is there some magical part of a human being that makes a trans person not viable as a sexual partner? If one is literally attracted to the entirety of the other person's body and emotional state, and then gets suddenly turned off by information about invisible things, then that suggests more about that person than their partner.

It's like a racist person finding out that a woman he just had sex with is part black and so he doesn't like that and feels she should have told him ahead of time, just in case he might have a problem with it.

Ok but that is you and I'm sure you are probably in the minority.

The point is it's not universal, nor usually based on any rational reason.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Don't you dare try to deflect from the issue at hand by bringing religion bashing into it. I'm not responding to that crap here.

You are a bigot because you are treating trans women as less than women. If you are simply not attracted to someone, that's fine but you're going beyond that.

Point at where I said I'm treating transsexual women less than women. I'm clearly saying in my eyes they are not women. This has nothing to do with me denying their belief that they are women. I'm highlighting my own psychological component that I don't see beyond that to make me be attracted to someone who is transsexual. You apparently are too emotional and are not reading logic because clearly I'm more so highlighting my preference as oppose to my acceptance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Point at where I said I'm treating transsexual women less than women. I'm clearly saying in my eyes they are not women. This has nothing to do with me denying their belief that they are women. I'm highlighting my own psychological component that I don't see beyond that to make me be attracted to someone who is transsexual. You apparently are too emotional and are not reading logic because clearly I'm more so highlighting my preference as oppose to my acceptance.

"Too emotional?" Did you miss the post where I said that I'm a transsexual man? I know a lot more about this issue than you ever will, so don't patronize me. In fact, I'm being more polite to you than I usually am towards people who say the things you have said because this forum requires a certain amount of civility.

You are completely disrespecting the gender identity of transsexual people. A trans woman is a woman, no matter how much you fail to see that or don't understand it. When you say that they are not women, you are making them out to be delusional/crazy/false. You are completely devaluing the experience and phenomena of transsexualism and those who suffer from it. This isn't some game we're playing as if we're out to dupe all the cis men of the world. This is our life and we have to deal with it every moment of our days. It's really not so much to ask that our identity be recognized as valid.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Sorry Penumbra I'm at work so if you'll forgive me I'll print out that later (besides my lunch is almost over)

So it's the same for trans people in the context of the OP, but you brought it up.

No. Quite different. Infertility is not the same as not disclosing one's true gender as I've said before that in my case, I prefer a biological woman. I believe it is imperative that if we are about to have sex (assuming that I believe whom I'm talking to is a female) I don't want to get to the point where when we get to that point, I see the person has a penis. This is different than a woman not disclosing whether or not she is infertile so I'm sorry I think your comparison model does not follow.

Certainly financial safety. Safety against accidentally changing the course of one's life in a way that one would seriously not prefer, such as with an unexpected pregnancy with a casual partner.

The point is, infertility is practically irrelevant for casual sex other than perhaps saying that at least that's one less risk.

I agree with this. However you still cannot rule out sexually transmitted disease because although financial safety is not a problem sexually transmitted disease pass on via dormant viruses like Herpes Simplex 2 can be a problem. So whether or not the person is fertile if contraceptives are used the matter is insignificant anyway.

Yeah, so it harmed them, not the other person (like your example of spreading an STD implies). That kind of thing can happen even during the disclosure of being trans, before any sex.

I never implied that it "harmed the one deceived," I merely indicated that dishonesty PERIOD, can cause harm whether the person being dishonest or the one whom was dishonest against. I used the link to indicate that dishonesty in that particular case unfortunately cause the life of that person. Like I said in any relationship honesty must be the foundation.

Is there some magical part of a human being that makes a trans person not viable as a sexual partner? If one is literally attracted to the entirety of the other person's body and emotional state, and then gets suddenly turned off by information about invisible things, then that suggests more about that person than their partner.

No. As I've stated before it is merely the idea that the person once was a man. the transsexual can have the sex changes but upon disclosing this information I believe, most likely a male who is heterosexual would not accept the advance. It's more about the psychological picture as opposed to the current one. I live in California and I have men who pass as women hit on me all the time, but I know they're men. I'm not attracted to that because I'm attracted to women. It does not mean I dislike the lifestyle it's NOT my lifestyle.

The point is it's not universal, nor usually based on any rational reason.

Sure every single man may not believe as I do but I believe majority do.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't want this to be ignored:

Of course most straight men will say no to such a question. They don't want to be seen as "gay" to their transphobic and homophobic peers. However, a good number of them would probably have sex with a trans woman as long as no one knows about it. That is a very common occurrence. Hetero cis males will screw a trans woman but not have a relationship with her and not let his friends and family know about it. There's a lot of shame surrounding it and your attitude towards this is a good example of it.

At the extreme end, this has led to trans women being assaulted and murdered by cis men who fly into a self-hating trans/homophobic panic . They commit violence against the trans woman in order to "save face" by their peers and claim that the trans woman "misled" them even though the trans woman in question usually has her "original plumbing" and these men have had sex with her. You even blame the trans woman for her own assault and/or murder instead of placing the blame where it properly belongs - the culture of transphobia and homophobia and the imbalanced, self-hating and confused people it produces.

This needs to end.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's like a racist person finding out that a woman he just had sex with is part black and so he doesn't like that and feels she should have told him ahead of time, just in case he might have a problem with it.

Excellent point.

The point is it's not universal, nor usually based on any rational reason.

It seems that cis women tend to be slightly more accepting of transsexual partners than cis men because their sexuality does not carry the same social expectations and stigmas that a straight cis man's sexuality does.

 

[Penumbra]

No. Quite different. Infertility is not the same as not disclosing one's true gender

The gender they are showing you is their true gender.

as I've said before that in my case, I prefer a biological woman.

They are biological women.

I believe it is imperative that if we are about to have sex (assuming that I believe whom I'm talking to is a female) I don't want to get to the point where when we get to that point, I see the person has a penis. This is different than a woman not disclosing whether or not she is infertile so I'm sorry I think your comparison model does not follow.

You're the one that brought up infertility. You said: "Besides, I want to have children." as though that is somehow relevant in the conversation of having casual sex with a trans person.

Suggesting that fertility is a factor in the ethics of a trans person disclosing their trans status to a casual sex partner is only coherent if you agree that a non-trans woman that happens to be infertile should disclose her infertility status prior to having casual sex.

I agree with this. However you still cannot rule out sexually transmitted disease because although financial safety is not a problem sexually transmitted disease pass on via dormant viruses like Herpes Simplex 2 can be a problem. So whether or not the person is fertile if contraceptives are used the matter is insignificant anyway.

What are you talking about? I never said you can't get an STD from a trans person.

Again, you're the one that compared the ethics of a trans person disclosing their trans status to disclosing of an STD. And the point is, disclosing an STD is important because it can actually harm the other person, whereas being trans does not harm the other person.

There are the same risks with having sex with a trans person as there are with a non-trans person. The only thing is, you brought up fertility as though it is relevant in the context of casual sex, and my point was that a) that's not really relevant and b) if it's relevant at all, it's relevant in the sense that that would be one less risk.

I never implied that it "harmed the one deceived," I merely indicated that dishonesty PERIOD, can cause harm whether the person being dishonest or the one whom was dishonest against.

They are being honest. The OP never said she lied about being trans. The person simply didn't tell the other person, much like one wouldn't necessarily disclose their medical history to someone they're having casual sex with. Maybe the other person should disclose the fact that they have a problem with the possibility of sleeping with trans people regardless of whether they can physically recognize them as trans, to take ownership of their own hang-ups about invisible non-harmful information.

I used the link to indicate that dishonesty in that particular case unfortunately cause the life of that person. Like I said in any relationship honesty must be the foundation.

And yet this isn't about relationships in the slightest so your argument isn't valid in this context.

No. As I've stated before it is merely the idea that the person once was a man.

You're responsible for that idea if it bothers you, not them.

the transsexual can have the sex changes but upon disclosing this information I believe, most likely a male who is heterosexual would not accept the advance. It's more about the psychological picture as opposed to the current one. I live in California and I have men who pass as women hit on me all the time, but I know they're men. I'm not attracted to that because I'm attracted to women. It does not mean I dislike the lifestyle it's NOT my lifestyle.

Those people passing as women are women. It's not a man passing as a woman, if we're talking about transsexual people.

Second, I'm not sure why you're using "lifestyle" in this context. Like people that refer to the "homosexual lifestyle".

Third, that's a different scenario than what the OP describes. If you can see physically that the person has masculine features, then that can affect your attraction to them. If a particular trans man has very feminine features, it might affect my sexual attraction to them, much like my sexual attraction to all men is based in part on their physical appearance. The OP describes a different scenario, where the man was apparently not able to detect any masculine features in the trans woman, was apparently attracted her enough to have sex with her, proceeded to have casual sex with her, and then only came to know she was trans because he was told later.

Sure every single man may not believe as I do but I believe majority do.

Probably, but not necessarily for coherent reasons.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

"Too emotional?" Did you miss the post where I said that I'm a transsexual man? I know a lot more about this issue than you ever will, so don't patronize me. In fact, I'm being more polite to you than I usually am towards people who say the things you have said because this forum requires a certain amount of civility.

You are completely disrespecting the gender identity of transsexual people. A trans woman is a woman, no matter how much you fail to see that or don't understand it. When you say that they are not women, you are making them out to be delusional/crazy/false. You are completely devaluing the experience and phenomena of transsexualism and those who suffer from it. This isn't some game we're playing as if we're out to dupe all the cis men of the world. This is our life and we have to deal with it every moment of our days. It's really not so much to ask that our identity be recognized as valid.

Well I apologize if you think I'm being offensive. I'm certainly not intentionally trying to be offensive and in fact, on this subject I'm constantly referencing myself to avoid speaking for others. Perhaps a thourough breakdown of what I'm trying to say would be more clear. On the matter of transsexuality I DO NOT deny that people who are transsexual see themselves as the gender they believe they are. I DO NOT believe transsexuals are delusional, psychotic, or have some sort of mental/genetic defect. I DO NOT subscribe to bigotry of any kind.

What I DO BELIEVE is that despite the circumstance of someone who is transsexual who believes they are their gender when it comes to my preference I DO NOT prefer a transsexual on the basis of a romantic relationship. It is not discriminatory on the aforementioned stereotypes, it is because I prefer a biological woman. For one, I want to have a biological child something a transsexual man to a woman cannot have. Two, as admitted earlier, the psychological profile of "was once a man" is hard for me to overcome mentally.

It is not me saying "oh they're not a woman" it is me with the mental picture of a person that was once a man. You may think that is an irrational fear (which is not) it is something I do not prefer nor am simply attracted to. If someone has a cultural preference or a religious one, we don't call them a racist or xenophobe, we simply say they have preferences. So I again repeat I simply do not prefer a transsexual, that is not to say I do not accept them as human beings nor would I treat them any different. I hope this is clear.

 

[Penumbra]

It seems that cis women tend to be slightly more accepting of transsexual partners than cis men because their sexuality does not carry the same social expectations and stigmas that a straight cis man's sexuality does.

Possibly. In a world without homophobia there would probably be a much lower prevalence of transphobia, as they are apparently related in peoples' minds.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The gender they are showing you is their true gender.

That is their perceived gender, but I do not have to subscribe to that fact if I BELIEVE they are not a man nor if they disclosed that their are transsexual I am not obligated to discount the fact that their assigned sex was male.

They are biological women.

This is a complex issue regarding the biopsychological factor of transsexuality and yes there are a lot of research supporting the fact that perhaps their is some neurochemistry that occurs which effects the person's belief that they are essentially "in the wrong body." I have no doubt those who are transsexual believe they are born a "woman" or a "man" in the wrong assigned body. I accept people for who they are but that does not me I have to forgo my own beliefs despite what they believe.

What are you talking about? I never said you can't get an STD from a trans person.

I was merely denoting the fact that despite financial safety there is really nothing safe about sex without pregnancy if the woman is infertile perhaps I wasn't clear.

Again, you're the one that compared the ethics of a trans person disclosing their trans status to disclosing of an STD.

Because dishonesty causes harm regardless whether one refuses to disclose an STD or their sexual origin, dishonesty is wrong. I will extend this further and say dishonest fidelity ergo, cheating also causes harm.

The only thing is, you brought up fertility

Actually in response to me you used infertility as an example I'm merely responding to it. If you go back I never mentioned fertility in my response to this thread.

The OP never said she lied about being trans. The person simply didn't tell the other person, much like one wouldn't necessarily disclose their medical history to someone they're having casual sex with.

I don't see how not telling someone they were once a man is NOT dishonest.

Maybe the other person should disclose the fact that they have a problem with the possibility of sleeping with trans people regardless of whether they can physically recognize them as trans, to take ownership of their own hang-ups about invisible non-harmful information.

So now the obligation is on the person to tell each woman that he does not like to sleep with transsexuals? Rich. If I did that to each and every woman I've dated they would be offended.

And yet this isn't about relationships in the slightest so your argument isn't valid in this context.

Ugh. Casual sex is a type of relationship although not on the same plane as marriage and/or girlfriend boyfriend it is still some form of a relationship. Again, like any relationship the people set the parameters of that relationship. Some people want sex with no strings attached, some use sex to enhance a relationship. Unless the OP is talking about a one night stand....

You're responsible for that idea if it bothers you, not them.

Eh, hence my usage of the word preference.

Those people passing as women are women. It's not a man passing as a woman, if we're talking about transsexual people.

Ok. You do realize transsexuality is an umbrella term so are you referring to the biopsychological model or are you referring to something else?

Second, I'm not sure why you're using "lifestyle" in this context. Like people that refer to the "homosexual lifestyle".

If its something that encompasses the beliefs of a common group I don't see how it's not a lifestyle.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well I apologize if you think I'm being offensive. I'm certainly not intentionally trying to be offensive and in fact, on this subject I'm constantly referencing myself to avoid speaking for others. Perhaps a thourough breakdown of what I'm trying to say would be more clear. On the matter of transsexuality I DO NOT deny that people who are transsexual see themselves as the gender they believe they are. I DO NOT believe transsexuals are delusional, psychotic, or have some sort of mental/genetic defect. I DO NOT subscribe to bigotry of any kind.

What I DO BELIEVE is that despite the circumstance of someone who is transsexual who believes they are their gender when it comes to my preference I DO NOT prefer a transsexual on the basis of a romantic relationship. It is not discriminatory on the aforementioned stereotypes, it is because I prefer a biological woman. For one, I want to have a biological child something a transsexual man to a woman cannot have. Two, as admitted earlier, the psychological profile of "was once a man" is hard for me to overcome mentally.

It is not me saying "oh they're not a woman" it is me with the mental picture of a person that was once a man. You may think that is an irrational fear (which is not) it is something I do not prefer nor am simply attracted to. If someone has a cultural preference or a religious one, we don't call them a racist or xenophobe, we simply say they have preferences. So I again repeat I simply do not prefer a transsexual, that is not to say I do not accept them as human beings nor would I treat them any different. I hope this is clear.

Thanks for explaining yourself more clearly.

The issue here is that you seem to be very caught up on the hypothetical past of a trans woman, presumably far before you even met her. That's not a good way to go about it. It's better to focus on the person as they are now. Transsexual women who have transitioned aren't going to be going out of their way to remind you of their assigned at birth sex. Most of them just want to live as and be seen as typical women. It's also not fair to hold a person's past against them. It's not something we can help, but we can control who we are now.

I can understand the wanting to have biological children. This is a very difficult issue for transsexual people since medical transition makes us sterile. You're very privileged in the fact that you're even able to have genetic children.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Thanks for explaining yourself more clearly.

The issue here is that you seem to be very caught up on the hypothetical past of a trans woman, presumably far before you even met her. That's not a good way to go about it. It's better to focus on the person as they are now. Transsexual women who have transitioned aren't going to be going out of their way to remind you of their assigned at birth sex. Most of them just want to live as and be seen as typical women. It's also not fair to hold a person's past against them. It's not something we can help, but we can control who we are now.

I can understand the wanting to have biological children. This is a very difficult issue for transsexual people since medical transition makes us sterile. You're very privileged in the fact that you're even able to have genetic children.

But the past defines who were are in the present. I just don't see how I'm wrong to believe as I do. I mean, consider the psychological condition of my beliefs.

 

[Penumbra]

That is their perceived gender, but I do not have to subscribe to that fact if I BELIEVE they are not a man nor if they disclosed that their are transsexual I am not obligated to discount the fact that their assigned sex was male.

You already said they're not delusional, so why would you say that their "true" gender (with no qualifiers about that term being subjective to your point of view) is the gender that they're not showing you?

This is a complex issue regarding the biopsychological factor of transsexuality and yes there are a lot of research supporting the fact that perhaps their is some neurochemistry that occurs which effects the person's belief that they are essentially "in the wrong body." I have no doubt those who are transsexual believe they are born a "woman" or a "man" in the wrong assigned body. I accept people for who they are but that does not me I have to forgo my own beliefs despite what they believe.

You didn't call it a belief, you simply implied that they are not biological women. And you said that you don't believe they are delusional.

So how should a person look at what you said here and mentally organize it in a coherent way?

If we're talking about someone like the person in the OP that may have transition as far as possible, the person is legally, socially, and mostly biologically female, and the evidence shows that key aspects of their neurobiology were of their gender identity. What belief is there to go on here when we have facts to look at?

I was merely denoting the fact that despite financial safety there is really nothing safe about sex without pregnancy if the woman is infertile perhaps I wasn't clear.

Because dishonesty causes harm regardless whether one refuses to disclose an STD or their sexual origin, dishonesty is wrong. I will extend this further and say dishonest fidelity ergo, cheating also causes harm.

How does a trans person not disclosing their medical history to a casual sex partner harm them?

Does a woman who is 1/4th black cause harm to a racist man by not disclosing to him before hand that she has that ancestry?

Actually in response to me you used infertility as an example I'm merely responding to it. If you go back I never mentioned fertility in my response to this thread.

I quoted what you said. You said, "Besides, I want to have children." You didn't use the word fertility, but that's what you said, as though it's relevant here. So the point is, using the argument that in some cases trans people can't produce children with you is only relevant if you would hold an infertile non-trans woman to the same standard.

I don't see how not telling someone they were once a man is NOT dishonest.

Why would that be important?

So now the obligation is on the person to tell each woman that he does not like to sleep with transsexuals? Rich.

Sure, if you are the one that would get upset about the issue of invisible non-harmful information, shouldn't you take the responsibility of finding out that fact about your sexual partners?

You said earlier that you get hit on by trans women all the time. Apparently where you live it's a real possibility that you could sleep with a trans woman and not know it, so if that concerns you then maybe you should take responsibility for it and ask a person. And if you think it's offensive to ask someone that in most contexts, and I would agree, then you should consider why you think that would be offensive.

If I did that to each and every woman I've dated they would be offended.

So we should structure what we consider morally obligatory around your convenience rather than the trans person's?

Ugh. Casual sex is a type of relationship although not on the same plane as marriage and/or girlfriend boyfriend it is still some form of a relationship. Again, like any relationship the people set the parameters of that relationship. Some people want sex with no strings attached, some use sex to enhance a relationship. Unless the OP is talking about a one night stand....

The OP is pretty explicitly talking about a one night stand. The description says they met and then later that night had sex.

Eh, hence my usage of the word preference.

So shouldn't the one with the preference take responsibility for their preference?

Ok. You do realize transsexuality is an umbrella term so are you referring to the biopsychological model or are you referring to something else?

Actually transgender is the umbrella term, transsexual is more specific, which is why I used that term there.

If its something that encompasses the beliefs of a common group I don't see how it's not a lifestyle.

What beliefs?

It's not a religion, it's something there is professional biological and psychological literature on. There's not some unified transsexual lifestyle across cultures, ages, sexes, and countries. There's nothing about a person's lifestyle that would really have to change if they date a trans person, especially if the person can't even physically see any differences.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is their perceived gender, but I do not have to subscribe to that fact if I BELIEVE they are not a man nor if they disclosed that their are transsexual I am not obligated to discount the fact that their assigned sex was male.

No, a transsexual person's gender identity is our actual gender. What we were assigned as at birth was forced on us and we have to spend a lot of time and money correcting this error.

This is a complex issue regarding the biopsychological factor of transsexuality and yes there are a lot of research supporting the fact that perhaps their is some neurochemistry that occurs which effects the person's belief that they are essentially "in the wrong body." I have no doubt those who are transsexual believe they are born a "woman" or a "man" in the wrong assigned body. I accept people for who they are but that does not me I have to forgo my own beliefs despite what they believe.

Not only is there already a biological component to transsexualism, but hormone therapy also causes such drastic change to the body to make it biologically male or female. A lot of people don't seem to understand the importance of hormones. Chromosomes in the womb trigger either androgens or estrogens that cause the body to develop sexual characteristics. When this happens in the womb, it makes a penis or a vagina form. When a transsexual person undergoes hormonal therapy, it causes a second puberty (or first puberty, if they have not undergone a puberty with bio-identical hormones due to taking hormone blockers). This basically "overwrites" much of the characteristics of the first puberty, stunts many of the characteristics caused by the first puberty and causes the development of the secondary sex characteristics of the sex they are transitioning to.

The biggest thing that cross-sex hormone therapy is not able to do is cause the appropriate genitals to develop because that's set in the womb due to chromosomes. In order to do that, the chromosomes would have to be rewritten and science is just not at that stage yet. But otherwise, for all intents and purposes, hormone therapy literally does cause a change in sex. It even effects the structure of the brain. For example, males have larger brains than females do. When a female-bodied person undergoes androgen therapy, his brain grows to a volume that matches the volume of a natal male.

I don't see how not telling someone they were once a man is NOT dishonest.

Truthfully, transsexuals never were the sex we were assigned at birth. I was never a girl. I just play-acted as one until my late teens (and not very well, to be honest). I have always been a guy.

If I did that to each and every woman I've dated they would be offended.

Ooh, irony. I'm offended that I have bring up being a transsexual to potential partners. It's not something I enjoy being reminded of. How much more so would that apply to a transsexual who has completed their transition.

Ok. You do realize transsexuality is an umbrella term so are you referring to the biopsychological model or are you referring to something else?

Transgender is an umbrella term. Not transsexualism. Transsexualism is a medical condition and was a medical term from the start. Not all transgender people suffer from transsexualism.

If its something that encompasses the beliefs of a common group I don't see how it's not a lifestyle.

We do not share a lifestyle. Would you say that cancer patients share a lifestyle? There's many transsexuals that I have little or nothing in common with. Some of whom I can't stand. We all have gender dysphoria but that's about the only thing that all transsexuals can agree on. We don't even all view our condition, what it means and what transitioning means the same way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But the past defines who were are in the present. I just don't see how I'm wrong to believe as I do. I mean, consider the psychological condition of my beliefs.

The past experiences of a transsexual in regards to their gender expression and labeling only matter in so far as we are attempting to correct the mistakes that were made in categorizing us.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

But in #1 as I look at some of the responses people often think rejection amounts to being rude. You can reject someone without being rude.

100% agreed.

#2 I disagree. I believe in a relationship built on a foundation of honesty I believe the person who has changed their assigned sex to have a duty to disclose that detail. Because as I mentioned in the above post a heterosexual man may not see beyond the present transformation. For me, I still see a man who has changed into a woman. Unfortunately this is a formed thought in my mind that I will not change. Besides, I want to have children. Also you claim nobody is obligated to do beyond what they don't like.....

Really? Is that your final answer?

What about someone who has genital herpes with no outbreak? Are you saying they are not obligated to disclose an embarrassing and ice breaking detail about a sexually transmitted disease?

Logically, those things would be mentioned (as long as said person is not selfish enough to break the ice). Transgender has very little to do with sex, if you think about it. That's in the past, there's no remnants of it being in existence during the sex, unlike genital herpes.

#3 I believed this in the above. Sexual preference matters because born heterosexual men want to be with born heterosexual women.

Exactly. If a person wants to be with a non-transgender, it is not their fault to want such a thing, and thus their preference should not be deemed wrong.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

100% agreed.



Logically, those things would be mentioned (as long as said person is not selfish enough to break the ice). Transgender has very little to do with sex, if you think about it. That's in the past, there's no remnants of it being in existence during the sex, unlike genital herpes.



Exactly. If a person wants to be with a non-transgender, it is not their fault to want such a thing, and thus their preference should not be deemed wrong.

Well as was said earlier regarding the hypothetical on disclosure, it was argued that a transsexual is not obligated to disclose their gender. My subsequent responses basically alludes to the idea that based on our current society disclosure is necessary, not only for safety (e.g attacks against transsexuals) but also to get an idea on whether the person accepts them or not. I used the herpes example to respond to Penumbra's remark that disclosing one's gender is not an obligation. But thank you for seeing my point

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well, it's still apparent that transphobia remains alive and well.

Basically, disclosure is considered a requirement by cis-gendered people so that they can determine whether or not a fully transitioned person is worthy enough for sex and romance. So, let's see....are they really human and worthy of intimacy? And can I cloak it all with innocently describing it as "preference"?

Oh, and to avoid being the victim of assault and battery. I've heard arguments like that before when it has come to scapegoating women and queers for violence committed against them. The logic didn't fly then and it doesn't fly now.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, it's still apparent that transphobia remains alive and well.

Basically, disclosure is considered a requirement by cis-gendered people so that they can determine whether or not a fully transitioned person is worthy enough for sex and romance. So, let's see....are they really human and worthy of intimacy? And can I cloak it all with innocently describing it as "preference"?

Oh, and to avoid being the victim of assault and battery. I've heard arguments like that before when it has come to scapegoating women and queers for violence committed against them. The logic didn't fly then and it doesn't fly now.

It's not scapegoating anything nor is it about placing blame, nor is it about transphobia. There is no personal fear or ignorance I have regarding those who are transsexual. The arguments made here are that I am to accept someone who is transsexual on the basis of the biopsychological argument. As I've said previously which SOA is the only one that got it, was that it is a preference, nothing more. However I also added that it is, I believe, imperative that a relationship of any kind begins with honesty.