Is it possible for believers to believe the Bible has mistakes in it?

[Koldo]

Nah, because, the atheist group is always going to have a higher percentage of incorrect framework by which to interpret the texts.

No. They have the same framework if they were members of that religion.

 

[Desert Snake]

No. They have the same framework if they were members of that religion.

Nope. In fact, this is clearly shown on the forums themselves, where you get a lot of ''beginner mistakes'' from ex-religionists.

 

[Desert Snake]

@Koldo

I rather find it telling, that you assume, I would have a bias towards the opinion of a theist, over a non-believer. That's incorrect.

You seem to be mixing things up, a ''bias'', on my part, for a probability of correct text interpretation.

 

[Koldo]

so, I should assume myself incorrect? That makes no sense, many things I hold as opinions are from study, which you brought up earlier, not from a biased perspective of Theism.

I sincerely doubt those opinions that come from your unbiased study oppose atheists' interpretations more often than theists'.

 

[psychoslice]

Nope. In fact, this is clearly shown on the forums themselves, where you get a lot of ''beginner mistakes'' from ex-religionists.

I myself see a lot mistakes from the very ones that call themselves Christians, or religious, x-religious people seem to have done their homework pretty well, that's why their no longer in the religion.

 

[Koldo]

Nope. In fact, this is clearly shown on the forums themselves, where you get a lot of ''beginner mistakes'' from ex-religionists.

Much of the interpretation they use is acquired while being a member of said religion.

 

[Koldo]

@Koldo

I rather find it telling, that you assume, I would have a bias towards the opinion of a theist, over a non-believer. That's incorrect.

You seem to be mixing things up, a ''bias'', on my part, for a probability of correct text interpretation.

If you and another theist share a common book as your holy text, then there will be certain shared characteristics between you. For instance, you will both generally want it to have internal consistency. And you may also want it to match our scientific knowledge, at very least not to contradict it. And then, if you have preconceived notions about what god is like, you will find a way to interpret negative events in a positive light to justify them. On the other hand, an atheist will feel differently. Atheists are not bound to these same expectations. That doesn't make their interpretation more accurate though.

It all adds up and you will naturally find more theists that have a matching interpretation ( with you ) than atheists.

 

[savagewind]

It is written "Daniel 12: 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined.+And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.+"

I got to wondering what it means to be "wicked". I know for certain that some very good people don't understand reason, so I looked it up.

And I found another mistake. I think what was written is: many will be condemning the wicked and not discern all wicked.

Daniel 12:10 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[savagewind]

It might mean that many consider themselves good and those 'good' people condemn wicked people not knowing that "there is no one righteous" and that is the problem. Please imagine that attitude spreading. Isn't that a problem?

Does all wickedness stem from condemnation? Think about it.

to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure. 2. to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment

 

[kepha31]

Written by people who were rhetorically writing.

"people who were rhetorically writing" pulled authority out of thin air?

People that were not witness to any event in all of the NT

This excuse gets tiresome. First, there were plenty of eye witnesses who were still alive to verify the truth of the Gospel message. Second, the community of believers predate anything written. Third, eye witnesses is not an absolute criteria for establishing historical fact, or you would have little history, just historical guessing. You know this, yet you continue with this "no eye witnesses" mantra as if it proves something.

 

[outhouse]

"people who were rhetorically writing" pulled authority out of thin air?

You have no idea what rhetorical prose is do you? You don't know the first thing about Aristotle?

This excuse gets tiresome

Its because you have no clue what your even debating. Its blatantly obvious you have no academic education here, and that is fine. Its the willful ignorance people possess where I have a problem.

First, there were plenty of eye witnesses who were still alive to verify the truth of the Gospel message.

Yes there were.

But these eyewitnesses were decades removed from the gospels.

The gospels were compilations of plagiarized literature, written in rhetorical prose. This is not up for debate.

Second, the community of believers predate anything written

Exactly, but the communities started small and not that many houses were even worshipping him, and factually not as you do today. The movement started very diverse with belief all over the board, with people believing he was all man to all god like gnostics, and what would become what you know, took a very long time.

Third, eye witnesses is not an absolute criteria for establishing historical fact, or you would have little history, just historical guessing.

That's right, and the further you go away from event the more accretion of theology and mythology took place.

You know this, yet you continue with this "no eye witnesses" mantra as if it proves something.

What I know is what I am repeating.

It is what I learned from multiple Professors.

 

[we-live-now]

Is believing there are no mistakes in the Bible a prerequisite for believing it?

Unbelievers know it carries maistakes. They might not know which scriptures are misunderstood and which aren't but they know it is not possible that it is perfect.

The Christian believers I have met seem to think it is perfect just the way it is.

Can we talk about that?

Great topic.

I am wondering if it more accurate to say the Bible appears to have "contradictions"? Where two ideas directly oppose each other. I can find HUNDREDS of these and did write about some of them here.

I have studied scripture immensely especially in the original words and I have personally concluded that God has placed man in at least 4 different realms which we call "body", "soul" and "spirit". However, I see at least one hidden realm of man called the "head" or "master spirit". Romans 6:20-22, 1 Cor 11:3. Notice in Romans 6 there are also two "heads" - one is "sin" and one is "righteousness".

Could these spiritual "partitions" of man explain all the "contradictions" between the "4 Gospels" of Matthew (body), Mark (subordinate spirit), Luke (inner and outer soul) and John (master Spirit)? Is God bringing them all together as ONE new man in one new body?

I see that each of them have a differing amount of law and "darkness". What is "true" in one realm may not be "true" in another and may even oppose each other. Ever feel your "flesh" or outer man is warring against your "heart" or inner man or vice versa?

In other words, what is true for your natural body you are walking around and "living" in today may NOT be true for your inner spirit man or soul.

If you study Genesis 1-6 closely in the original words, you will find that man's body, soul and spirit are split into different realms. Some are "inner" and some are "outer". I believe "outer" is where the natural body is (outside the "garden"/soul) and this is where death still exists.

But, God knows each part of you intimately, even the parts you can't see that are invisible as they are "behind the veil" that is over our natural mind.

Gods plan seems to be to pass everyone through the law which results in death and also full purification and new, eternal life. Our current natural body is (spiritually) dead and it is also part of our full "cleansing" and new birth.

Duane

 

[outhouse]

Could these spiritual "partitions" of man explain all the "contradictions" between the "4 Gospels"

No.

That would be a complete lack of knowledge of what actually took place.

If you want to know about the contradictions you would need to pick up Cultural anthropologist work and what scholars say who have studied that work.

If you study Genesis 1-6 closely in the original words, you will find that man's body, soul and spirit are split into different realms

Lot of mythology in Genesis

I am wondering if it more accurate to say the Bible appears to have "contradictions"?

No it is not.

It has them end of story, to say the opposite one has to jump through imaginative mental hurdles. Different communities wrote about a man they found important who were ALL far removed from ant actual event. They also had artistic freedom to paint their picture of Jesus differently then the rest.

Its a literal interpretation that is a fault here.

The educated people have no problem with this because they understand the context and importance of these pieces without ruining them by placing them out of context with some jacked up interpretation.

The original men who compiled these into a single book knew about these contradictions and did not care. Even they didn't use a jacked up interpretation. They found value in each retelling of a story from a time period when people told stories they used artistic freedom.

 

[we-live-now]

No.

That would be a complete lack of knowledge of what actually took place.

If you want to know about the contradictions you would need to pick up Cultural anthropologist work and what scholars say who have studied that work.

Hi Outhouse. I don't know if we will even be able to be on the same page. I believe the original scriptures are 100% truth and it appears you don't??? That's ok, we are all on a different journey.

I am wondering though what you think of this question.

For someone who does believe the original scripture words to be 100% truth...

Is it possible (if the scriptures are true) that the physical realm and natural Earth was changed when the "ground was cursed" in Genesis 3?

If it is possible, then could this mean that God's actual life-source was possibly hidden or removed from each particle of the physical creation?

If this is a possibility (even if remotely), then wouldn't anthropologists be studying the "dead" (spiritual) ground as opposed to the living version that existed before the curse? If so, then would their evidence or lack-there of even be useful?

I believe that before Genesis 3:17 that God's life was part of the entire "Earth" both spiritual and natural.

After this time, his life was hidden and separated from what we call "natural" and "physical". The "natural" realm no longer contained his eternal life source, or at least it was and is totally veiled and hidden.

These are just my thoughts based on my attempts to reconcile scripture with science. I think God has completely hidden most of himself from science and the natural/physical creation. Except the natural laws we know.

I think these thoughts will not compute for a person who focuses on what they can only see, feel and experience with their senses.

Take care.

Duane (we-live-now)

 

[outhouse]

I believe the original scriptures are 100% truth and it appears you don't???

Its not that. I understand the truth differently then you do. Its all in interpretation. I don't have a literal one.


I also study religion academically on the historical side, so I know what is and what is not historical for the most part. Some places we don't know but have different levels of plausibility.


I find it important to understand parts of the bible are factual mythology, used to teach important morals and lesson that were valuable to these people.

Is it possible (if the scriptures are true) that the physical realm and natural Earth was changed when the "ground was cursed" in Genesis 3?

Mythology my friend. I believe it to be factual and not up for debate.

The book evolved into its current form. It was not written by a single author. These people had no clue of the world before 3000 years ago, and there is no evidence at all for any aspect of the claims made.

I think these thoughts will not compute for a person who focuses on what they can only see, feel and experience with their senses.

Take care.

Duane (we-live-now)

That's a fine way brother, and I don't want to change your belief or faith in any way.

 

[outhouse]

I would like to thank you for a peaceful and civil debate despite our different views.

Good luck.

 

[we-live-now]

Its not that. I understand the truth differently then you do. Its all in interpretation. I don't have a literal one.


I also study religion academically on the historical side, so I know what is and what is not historical for the most part. Some places we don't know but have different levels of plausibility.


I find it important to understand parts of the bible are factual mythology, used to teach important morals and lesson that were valuable to these people.




Mythology my friend. I believe it to be factual and not up for debate.

The book evolved into its current form. It was not written by a single author. These people had no clue of the world before 3000 years ago, and there is no evidence at all for any aspect of the claims made.

That's a fine way brother, and I don't want to change your belief or faith in any way.

I like your attitude. Its open and flexible. I apologize if the following sounds like Christian dogma. My true message is "rest and trust God". Can I live it? No I can't. But I do believe it. I think if a person really thinks about what I am trying to say, it is very good news regardless of our religious beliefs.

I have studied scripture a LOT and I believe i have a VERY open mind to anything my heart tells me is true and good. I personally believe we are all part of one big family and are all brothers and sisters and we will find this out one day. We just "forgot" when we were placed into this current body made of the darkened "dust of the ground". It's this very body that blocks us from God and our true selves we were before.

There is a purpose for all of this. God calls our body a "prison of disobedience" because we can't see the truth (of God) while in it. It is made of dark spiritual "dust" from the ground. Gen 2-3

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all Romans 11:32

Whether we know God or not, believe him or not, he WILL do this. He will show mercy to all people regardless of their beliefs or faith. Unlike most (Christians) I believe God does it via OTHER religions and ways and means. He is ALL things and there is nothing outside of him that can exist. His sacrifice was for ALL people of ALL time and he will make sure they receive their free gift of eternal life. It may occur in "Buddhism" or Hinduism or no formal religion at all. This is where I get angry at the Christian "teachers" as so many teach that the ability to "have faith" or "believe God exists" comes from THAT person at least in some small measure. However, their very "book" teaches that a person can NOT believe unless God himself gives them the faith of Jesus inside them. Humans are merely the "container" that contains God.

So, the very ability for us to see the hidden spiritual things (have faith) and thus receive eternal life comes from God also and not from man.

Every Christian teacher I have ever heard teaches a contradiction here. (But honestly, the Bible DOES often contradict itself) They teach that we must somehow "fix ourselves" or "have faith" first before we can receive from God meaning we must "clean up our lives" so we look "presentable" to God. Yet, it is God himself and his gifts that is the only thing that can "clean up our lives".

That is not what scripture teaches.

It says at the RIGHT time the testimony (of Christ) will be given and brought to life in a persons heart. See 1 Tim 2:6.

who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time 1 Tim 2:6

2 Peter 3:9 confirms God's sovereign will and plan which HE will do through his Son.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance 2 Peter 3:9 "Repentance" just means "change your mind about God".

When this "proper time" occurs a person can NOT deny God because their inner man (heart) will now fully be Christ himself. Gal 2:20, Rom 14:7 The Son can not deny the father. Outer "religion" (works) is irrelevant in God's (true) eyes because all of the "outer" is dying and will be "shed" like a caterpillar at (full) death of "self". "Self" is the person who resides in a natural (spiritually darkened) body and thus falsely believes they are separated from God

Ponder these verses. Remember, they are TRUE in the HIDDEN reality regardless of our beliefs. Just like gravity.

So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:22-31

Do you see Paul is talking to "unbelievers" and he calls God their father too?

When (natural) man looks at the words and doesn't allow the Spirit of Christ inside him to interpret them, they are non-sense. 1 Cor 2:14, Col 2:18. However, if Christ inside us interprets the meaning of the scriptures and truths HE secretly wrote (revealed to these men) then an amazingly HUGE and beautiful picture emerges in our minds as we "put the pieces of his spiritual puzzle" together.

We are ALL his children!

We are either Sons (and daughters) of "obedience" which is faith or disobedience (unbelief). Rom 1:5, 16:26, Ephesians 2:2 But, BOTH are his children. One is the prodigal son who left and the other is the religious son who thought he could work to earn the father's blessings.
None of this is required, however, to receive your spiritual gift of eternal life. It will occur when God our father says. He will flip the remote switch and reveal Christ (and his ETERNAL life) inside of each and every one of us.
Ponder these verses. Remember, they are TRUE in the HIDDEN reality regardless of our beliefs. Just like gravity.

In Acts 17 Paul is talking to what Christians would call "unbelievers". He calls God the father of ALL people in verse 28-29. This is true whether we believe it or not. Remember, our own faith (belief or unbelief) is NOT what saves us or not saves us. It's the faith and life of Christ himself that God reveals inside us.

to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood Gal 1:16

You can see in Gal 1:16, that the Son was ALREADY inside Paul, but just wasn't revealed to him.
Also, Gal 1:12 shows us that true faith does not come from things "outward". It comes from within. This is the powerful "mystery" that God will reveal to all people in "the proper time". Eph 2:3-11

I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ Gal 1:12

to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory Col 1:27

So, there it is my friend. That's the GREAT news! The very Son of God exists inside ALL people as the "LAST ADAM". 1 Cor 15:45. Just as the first "Adam" contained ALL people in his body of sin, the last Adam (Christ) contains ALL people in his body of LIFE. Before the "testimony is given" Christ is in "seed format". Gen 3. Once he "dies" inside a person and is planted into the "ground" of their heart, he will SPRING forth life inside them.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit John 12:24

ALL religion and works of the outer man including his own faith and beliefs are 100% irrelevant in this eternal life process. They only contribute to the "death" (natural) side that comes first. 1 Cor 15:46 However, if he wants to start to experience the gift while IN the body cooperation with the Spirit is required. As a good and loving father, God will still get his way and you will receive eternal life at his preset time, he will then compel you to WANT to open your gift.

Take care.
Duane

 

[Mattithyah]

Spend a few months learning how to use an authoritative Hebrew Lexicon, do a little independent translating while ignoring those evil little vowel points, and you'll be confident that those errors not only exist, but they outnumber the correctly translated portions. The Hebrew manuscript is about 95% correct IF YOU IGNORE VOWEL POINTS which are interpretations NOT translations based on Kabbalah Mysticism, Gnostic, and Alexandrian dogma. If you're interested, I have translated Genesis chapter 1 into English from the Hebrew. I think it took me about a week to complete, and it doesn't even remotely resemble what we have in our traditional versions of the Bible. It reads more like a letter, or diary entry and it's really, really sad....talking about how the Earth was filling up with people who could care less about having a relationship with their Creator or serving mankind. We were created to serve, not get rich and fat or become Freemasons.

I think I'll do a post about Freemasonry in the Bible. It is evil and the Bible mentions it specifically a few times along with Hiram the alleged founder.

 

[outhouse]

, I have translated Genesis chapter 1 into English from the Hebrew.

Im sorry but it takes more then a translation to understand the compiled text.

A translation does not take into account how fragmented and pieced together the book actually is. The fact it was redacted over hundreds of years means you can only at best understand the last redactors meaning which is a partial interpretation at best, and that is only if you did it right, which not knowing you leaves me with some pretty serious reservations as to any possible accuracy in context to its native form.

 

[savagewind]

I think that believing and teaching that God said all the words in scripture makes it so much more important to be sure you read what was originally written.

You: God says this
God: No, I didn't
You: Yes, You did!
God: No, really, I didn't.
You: But You said you said it all.
God: I AM SORRY, I didn't say all the things you say I said.