Is Erotic Pole Dancing Immoral?

[Sunstone]

"to what extent are lust and greed immoral? because to an extent, we are all lustufl and greedy."

I would take a somewhat different approach and point out that lust and greed are both possible responses that people might have to pole dancing, but they are not necessarily intrinsic to pole dancing since one can conceive of pole dancing with neither lust nor greed.

Of course, I would probably have to clarify that by "lust and greed" I mean an excessive desire for sex or money. That is, a desire that takes over one's life. I see nothing wrong with desiring sex and money unless such a desire becomes excessive.

 

[Sunstone]

Does everyone agree that "always treat others as also an end to themselves and not only as a means to an end" is a good principle according to which to judge whether pole dancing is moral or not?

 

[eudaimonia]

Is nude or near nude erotic pole dancing immoral?

My opinion is that it is morally neutral, and any morality or immorality of it obtains to the viewers. Specifically, do they treat the dancer only as a means to an end, or do they treat her also as an end in herself? If they treat her only as a means to an end, then that is immoral. While if they treat her as also an end in herself, there is nothing immoral about it. But what do you think?

I totally agree with you on this, however, I will add another criterion. Does she treat herself as merely an end of others, or (also) as an end-in-herself? I believe the latter is possible, and the former is perhaps a result of low self-esteem or a history of sexual abuse.

Does everyone agree that "always treat others as also an end to themselves and not only as a means to an end" is a good principle according to which to judge whether pole dancing is moral or not?

Yes, from the perspective of the viewer.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Valjean]

I never found the Poles particularly erotic, and the Polka, while lively, cannot be characterized as lascivious...

Seriously, though. I think the opprobrium traditionally heaped on eroticism, and sex-work in general, is a bit dated.

 

[michel]

Is nude or near nude erotic pole dancing immoral?

My opinion is that it is morally neutral, and any morality or immorality of it obtains to the viewers. Specifically, do they treat the dancer only as a means to an end, or do they treat her also as an end in herself? If they treat her only as a means to an end, then that is immoral. While if they treat her as also an end in herself, there is nothing immoral about it. But what do you think?

My opinion is that it is morally neutral

I tended to agree with you straight off, but it depends on the pole dancing.

I know that some women have found it to be a very good all round excercise..

But when it is done in front of an audience of (mainly) men, in a club, what is the purpose ? - titilation ?.........that's what I would guess.

Now look at the whole picture from an objective point of view; titilation is a form of teasing, or seduction.

Surely seduction, when there is no intention whatsoever to carry that through to the expected conclusion could well be described as immoral. It is a case of leading people on without having any intention of continuing.

 

[eudaimonia]

Surely seduction, when there is no intention whatsoever to carry that through to the expected conclusion could well be described as immoral. It is a case of leading people on without having any intention of continuing.

I don't know about you, but I have never assumed that pole dancers wanted anything from me except to stuff a few dollars in their g-strings.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Hema]

Poles should never dance erotically. The last time the ones outside our house did it, the power lines went down. They had a severe scolding after that!

Heh heh heh Meggie, that's really funeee!

Seriously though, I think that it's degrading because a woman who does it demeans herself to being a sex object and the men who look at her in that way are seeing her as a sex object. There are many women who do it for fun but on the other hand there are women who do it with a heavy heart, knowing that they are giving away their dignity to feed their children etc. Imagine looking at someone with lust whilst she is dying inside. I saw a woman crying on "Oprah" once, saying that the only reason she takes off her clothes is for her children. These pole dancers are daughters, sisters, mothers etc. I'm sure that not everyone will want his/her daughter/sister/mother to be seen in that way. :no:

 

[Valjean]

So what is the purpose of the highly refined foodstuffs found in expensive restaurants? Skilled chefs aren't paid handsomely to shovel out Black Broth. Nutrition and health are the farthest things from their minds.
They work to titillate. How is this different from any other form of titillation?
Shouldn't all be painted with the same brush?
If gustatory titillation is acceptable, why is erotic titillation treated differently?

 

[Hema]

So what is the purpose of the highly refined foodstuffs found in expensive restaurants? Skilled chefs aren't paid handsomely to shovel out Black Broth. Nutrition and health are the farthest things from their minds.
They work to titillate. How is this different from any other form of titillation?
Shouldn't all be painted with the same brush?
If gustatory titillation is acceptable, why is erotic titillation treated differently?

Because one's dignity is not affected in the scenario you made reference to.

 

[Valjean]

One's dignity is a personal affair. If you choose to accept society's moral assessment of your actions that's you're affair.
Personally I would find it a great deal more shameful to join the military and sell my body as a weapon of war, yet this profession is lauded by society.

I have little faith in society's evaluation of things.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Socrates and pornography
Socrates and Jesus on Lust

 

[Hema]

One's dignity is a personal affair. If you choose to accept society's moral assessment of your actions that's you're affair.
Personally I would find it a great deal more shameful to join the military and sell my body as a weapon of war, yet this profession is lauded by society.

I have little faith in society's evaluation of things.

It's not my affair because only one special man will ever see me naked. I agree that people should not sell their bodies as weapons of war, but in certain instances, we must stand up to defend ourselves and others (I know that many wars these days are not about this). I'm thinking like how Arjuna was on the battlefield and Shri Krishna told him to stand up for what he believes in. Back to the original topic now. Many murders and kidnappers do not think that what they do is immoral. In their minds, it's okay, in our minds it's not. Is it that morality is in the mind of the beholder?

Namaste.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Pole dancing is quite a clever concept.

It takes up the minimum bar space.
It gives the maximum view to the maximum customers
It keeps the punters happy and keeps them spending money.
It keeps staff overheads to the minimum.
by keeping the girls as high as possible it keeps them away from wandering hands.
It has very little to do with the sex trade.

In the UK it is taught to middle aged women in council dance classes along with belly dancing.

Even in London's Soho it is pretty tame, though I hear that in private clubs it can go to the logical conclusion , with customer participation.

So is it immoral? It can be ... but mostly isn't.

 

[Sunstone]

Seriously though, I think that it's degrading because a woman who does it demeans herself to being a sex object and the men who look at her in that way are seeing her as a sex object.

If the woman sees herself as only a sex object, or if the customer sees her as only a sex object, isn't that the fault of the woman and the customer, rather than of the dance itself? For, are there not women who dance but do not see themselves as only a sex object, and are there not customers who watch but do not see the dancer as only a sex object?

To fault the dance itself is to shift moral responsiblity from people to things.

 

[michel]

I don't know about you, but I have never assumed that pole dancers wanted anything from me except to stuff a few dollars in their g-strings.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I have never even seen one - nor do I particularly want to do so.

 

[Hema]

If the woman sees herself as only a sex object, or if the customer sees her as only a sex object, isn't that the fault of the woman and the customer, rather than of the dance itself?

Yes it is the fault of the woman and the customer. Nothing is wrong with the dance itself. I would see nothing wrong if I did a pole dance for my husband. (Okay, not married yet, will be soon).

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

If I had to put in terms of "morals" I'd say it's netral, and quite humorous in a way. I've known a few strippers and it's really pretty funny how many guys are played, and willingly play along while handing them bundles of cash- when's the last time any of us earned almost $1,000 in a six hour period? If I was a woman and looked as good as some of those girls do , I'd be dancing. They don't have much to worry about either, a guy touches them and they don't want them to or if there is a "no touching policy" bouncers will make sure that offenders are going to leave peacefully or they end up eating pavement pretty quickly. Anymore, I'd say about 1/4 of the audience is female which also changes the atmosphere, - it's a good thing, less problems.

 

[Hema]

If I was a woman and looked as good as some of those girls do , I'd be dancing.

So what's stopping a man from doing it?

 

[BFD_Zayl]

well, depends on your point of view. whether its below, to the side, if she's upside down....err, wait...:tsk:...shame on your for making me type that.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

So what's stopping a man from doing it?

Simple- less money, I would be glad to dance for you if you gave me enough cash to live comfortably. I'm 6'2, 235 lbs eat right and work out quite a bit and am considered by most women to be handsome. I've been told by my female stripper friends they don't know why I do what I do and I could make more money elsewhere, but that isn't me. if it was more profitable than what I was doing, I'd do it.

Not going to dance for gays though, it would be against my principles.

Women can make a lot more money with their bodies than men, for various reasons, it's just the way it is.