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Is belief in God a belief in Magic?

In my experience, I really can't say which group is larger: literalists or non-literalists. (Or anything in between.)

trust me when i say. when it comes to issues such as believing adam and others lived 900+ years, and that god made balaams donkey speak, or jonah was in the belly of a fish, or that god parted the sea through moses or joshua stopped the sun etc. the vast majority of christians, especially in the USA believe all these things actually happened. i was raised a christian and have been to dozens of churches in both usa and europe.......im willing to bet a pretty penny that if we select a random church and walk into a bible study and ask people wether they believe any of these stories actually physically happened, youll be lucky to find a few who wont raise their hands in approval.... anyone in arizona willing to take me up on this bet let me know.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
trust me when i say. when it comes to issues such as believing adam and others lived 900+ years, and that god made balaams donkey speak, or jonah was in the belly of a fish, or that god parted the sea through moses or joshua stopped the sun etc. the vast majority of christians, especially in the USA believe all these things actually happened. i was raised a christian and have been to dozens of churches in both usa and europe.......im willing to bet a pretty penny that if we select a random church and walk into a bible study and ask people wether they believe any of these stories actually physically happened, youll be lucky to find a few who wont raise their hands in approval.... anyone in arizona willing to take me up on this bet let me know.

Well, in America, that's not surprising. :no:

But, by Europe, do you mean you've been to several churches in every European country?
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
I really don't follow you at all. Why would such information be inappropriate to the internet? Unless it violates a rule here, I don't see any reason not to release whatever information you want.

I didn't find anything really on Kellogg, other than something to do with humans and chimps.

Animals are real life, so I don't understand. Are you saying that a human being would have to die?

Kellogg believed if he put his son in close proximity to a chimp of similar age, the chimp would develop human like qualities. This severely backfired, and his son became more chimp like, from which he never made a full recovery, albeit a lot further progressed than Oxana Malaya. As a result of this, direct testing on humans, without first trialling it on animals with positive results, were completely banned worldwide, and laws were written in all countries that I know of, to uphold this.

There are many things we can test on animals which will give the same or similar results in humans. Somethings though, we need human interaction to gauge what is being felt, seen and otherwise sensed. A rat for example cannot say to us, hey I just had an out of body experience.

There are three conditions from which an alleged, out of body experience is generated. 1) meditation 2) accidents, including pre, during and post 3) death (as in been brought back to life from death)

Of the three we can legally test one of these, that of meditation. It is not intrusive and cannot harm the volunteer in any way. Results from meditation tests so far have been mainly negative. As for the other 2, any test devised to set up identical situations is illegal, due to the volunteers safety.

LOL people who have reported this phenomena are not dead, albeit not when they reported it. Some though had been.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Kellogg believed if he put his son in close proximity to a chimp of similar age, the chimp would develop human like qualities. This severely backfired, and his son became more chimp like, from which he never made a full recovery, albeit a lot further progressed than Oxana Malaya. As a result of this, direct testing on humans, without first trialling it on animals with positive results, were completely banned worldwide, and laws were written in all countries that I know of, to uphold this.

There are many things we can test on animals which will give the same or similar results in humans. Somethings though, we need human interaction to gauge what is being felt, seen and otherwise sensed. A rat for example cannot say to us, hey I just had an out of body experience.

There are three conditions from which an alleged, out of body experience is generated. 1) meditation 2) accidents, including pre, during and post 3) death (as in been brought back to life from death)

Of the three we can legally test one of these, that of meditation. It is not intrusive and cannot harm the volunteer in any way. Results from meditation tests so far have been mainly negative. As for the other 2, any test devised to set up identical situations is illegal, due to the volunteers safety.

LOL people who have reported this phenomena are not dead, albeit not when they reported it. Some though had been.

So, we're looking for an out-of-body experience.

I don't know much about neuroscience or brain activity, but I suspect the same mechanisms that cause out-of-body experiences are the same ones that cause dreams. Out of body experiences don't require a non-physical soul.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
So, we're looking for an out-of-body experience.

I don't know much about neuroscience or brain activity, but I suspect the same mechanisms that cause out-of-body experiences are the same ones that cause dreams. Out of body experiences don't require a non-physical soul.



The alledged soul leaving the body on death, is an out of body experience no matter how it is looked upon.

Pertaining to dreams and out of body experience. On the contrary, albeit an easy association to make. For most part, those tested through meditation, have all exhibited dream type states and therefore imagination. Not one of those tested, who had claimed to have left their body, could say what a picture was in the next room, or even what was going on in the same room for that matter. Some though did give it their best guess. LOL some more than one guess.

When a person sleeps, the brain doesn't stop. The best time a person can study for an exam, is just prior to going to sleep, the brain will keep this knowledge turning over all night and will be on the top of their thought patterns the next day. Providing of course they haven't anything more important to focus on, for then the brain will give this knowledge priority.

The brain itself works on many levels, our first thought is our strongest thought, or the relationship of association our brain holds greatest value in. This is the value we generally run with, however, if we stop to think a bit more, other values may come into play as a second or after thought. The more we think, the deeper we think, the more values we can come up with, as long as they don't go past our own comfort zone, they are okay, for if they do, we will deny them and dismiss them as irrelevant.

When we sleep, the brain slows right down. This is the time of life we are closest to death, albeit can be brought about by a meditation or medication state. When the brain is slowed right down, there is no path of association which holds greater value, the conscious state is not there to control them. This is the reason why sometimes dreams can appear so erratic or fanciful. You might start dreaming about a car, driving down the road somewhere, everything is good, then suddenly, whammo! Out of the blue a cow falls from the sky. This is the brain picking up on an association pattern, which normally, in the awakened brain, would have been pushed aside. This association pattern could have come from a movie, anywhere as long as the brain has knowledge of it, the brain will use it. The reason why people often find answers to problems in their dreams, is simply because in the dream state, the brain will relate to things not normally associated to in an awake state. The brain is also more focused at this point.

OBE's and NDE's do not generally exhibit this same erratic or fanciful state. What the people observe is very clear cut, defined and specific. In many cases, knowledge they could not know, yet do know, in great detail. Coincidence? Possibly. Reality? Possibly. Only testing and evaluation will give us this knowledge for sure.
 
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EverChanging

Well-Known Member
yes, if you believe in unicorns, talking snakes and donkeys, flame spitting sea dragons, resurrections, ascensions, multiplications of foods, raining fire and sulfur, heavenly creatures eating food and banging women, 9 foot tall men, men who live close to 1000 years, men who dont eat or drink for up to 40 days, seas parting, the ground opening up to swallow people and then quickly closing back, a man surviving inside a fish for 3 days unharmed. miraculous healings such as restoration of sight, walking on water, floating/flying through the air, telling the sun and moon to stop/or stopping earths rotation, hands writing on walls. etc. yes, you believe in magic

It depends on what one believes God is -- some people identify the physical universe as God. This is not a magical god. And it depends on one's concept of magic, but personally, I don't see a difference between the supernatural and magic. I agree with the above quote: if one believes that any of those things literally happened, they believe in magic. In the church I was in as a child, the members believed all of that mythology literally, and to believe it was only metaphor would disqualify one from being a Christian in their view. I am living in the South, and most people I know believe these stories literally, even Noah's ark, which is hard for me to fathom. I remember reading that story as a ten year old and thinking, "Wow, the Bible would be so much easier to believe if this wasn't in here!" And of course with time, I found many other problems with a literal understanding of the Bible, too.

Even the Roman Catholic Church leans heavily toward a literal understanding of the virgin birth and believe in all kinds of magical/supernatural stories about the saints, etc.

I have a deep appreciation for mythology, symbolism, and religious ritual, but it still boggles my mind that people can read stories written in an ancient culture thousands of years ago and believe that they are literal truth, and I'm even more amazed by people who cite an ancient purity taboo from a book as foreign and brutally harsh (by modern standards) as Exodus and expect that to be what we live by today, especially since in Exodus it is permitted to stone one's child for disobedience, sell one's daughter into slavery, one is forbidden to wear clothes with mixed fabrics, one can't sow mixed seeds in a garden, shrimp is abominable, etc. And yet many people I come into contact with on a regular basis pull a single scripture out of these hundreds of prohibitions and laws and expects everyone else to accept it as absolute truth....I really don't get it....
 

logician

Well-Known Member
OUt of body experiences have never been scientifcally proven, in fact, they all have been disproven if real scientific methods were applied.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
OUt of body experiences have never been scientifcally proven, in fact, they all have been disproven if real scientific methods were applied.

Most have never been tested under scientific method. It is illegal to formulate a test to do so.
 
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