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Interesting video about evolution and origins.

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is not nonsense. You cannot answer but are deflecting. Show me direct evidence of the first replicators so I can agree with that foundation premise? Also show me how it appeared other than lady luck poof, here I am? You should learn critical thinking skills so you can make sure any model; science or not, has a solid conceptual foundation per the rules of science.
You do not get to make any such demands since your own posts show that you do not understand the "rules of science".

Now if you want to ask questions properly I will gladly answer them. Or if you want to learn the basics of science so that you can begin to learn on your own I will gladly help you with that too.

But your question has false claims built into it. For example, neither evolution nor abiogenesis are based upon "lady luck". So questions involving that false assumption cannot be answered except to point out where your errors are.

Second "irreducible complexity" is a claim. It has never been demonstrated in the sciences. It is not even a scientific concept. And if you understood the basics of science that would be obvious to you.

Lastly you do not have critical reasoning skills. Do not say that others lack them. But if you want to have them in the science the first thing you need to do is to learn the basics. Are you willing to learn? I am willing to help.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
So I have to admit that the ASA is biased. But this is not saying that it is wrong, or that it lies. These things have to be determined by what it says.
From post #119
I never said anything about them lying about the science for any reason, much less their religious viewpoint….. so please try to refrain from trying to strawman or misconstrue my point.

You listed Sye Garte’s bona fides as including his association with the ASA.
I said the ASA is a religious organization and pointed out their obvious biases.
The video posted in the OP was Garte at a christian apologist convention.
So, once again…….
I never said anything about them lying.
This is your assumption that bias = lying;
this is a false equivalency.
What bias does is often blind ones ability to apply rationality by distorting their perception of evidence (as you have demonstrated).

Once again:
Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias is insuperable for most people, but they can manage it, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.

I have shared this link with you previously.
I strongly recommend that you actually read it make a concerted effort to understand it, and once again, I once again would further recommend your following it up with an introduction to cognitive bias mitigation and critical thinking.
(Cognitive bias mitigation - Wikipedia)
(Critical thinking - Wikipedia)

The scientific method was devised as a means of mitigating biases; this is precisely why it is successful.
It demands objectively verifiable and measurable evidence in order to eliminate as much bias as possible.
This is why it doesn’t accept subjective assumptions, interpretation, or “experiences” as evidence until such time as they are objectively demonstrated as valid.

These things are from faith in the Bible and experiences of people.
I could give miracles where there is no known scientific reason.
I could give prophecies that have or are being fulfilled, or promises of God that are happening.
All subject to individual interpretation, possibly misperceived experiences, and unsubstantiated faith.
All of which have been proven to be unreliable methods of determining reality.
The very things that rational thinking and science eschew in order to be as demonstrably and reliably accurate as possible.

That sounds objective and subjective at the same time to me.
This is due to your confirmation bias.
I don't think it could be proven that it was God who did these things however. It does take faith.
Well, congratulations on admitting it is a matter of faith. Why not embrace it as such?
Why then do you attempt to smuggle in a pretense of science?
Could it be to placate your mind by attempting to make your faith appear to be rational?
Or perhaps an attempt to foster solidarity with other credulous believers in order to feel it is at least reasonable so as to excuse your own biases?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You are making bad assumptions. And you are conflating function and purpose. The structure has a function that changed over time. He was using an extreme example to show.how much could be removed and it still had a function. That showed Behe to be extremely wrong.

You could remove one part, and it would still have a function.

You could remove two parts and it would still have a function.

You could remove three . . .

He didn't do the easy one. Where just one part is removed. They removed a whole bunch of parts and it still had a function. Behe's error may have assumed that the flagellum was a goal rather than an ever changing function.

A hole in the cell wall could have a function. A motor with sort of propeller could have a function (and I think they do inside cells) and the hole with the propeller sticking through it connected to a motor has a function.
I have not seen other parts removed and it still having a function.
Maybe a 40 part motor could be cut into pieces with functions but I have not seen that even if the proteins involved in the motor are homologous with other proteins in the cell.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. That isn't science. That is someone sharing what they believe with you. You can believe it or not, but it isn't science. The evidence doesn't support that the flagellar motor is irreducible. More to the point, irreducible complexity isn't testable. How would it be possible to know all the potential iterations of a feature and show they have no reduced function somewhere?

All the examples that Behe used to support his idea have since been shown to exist in reduced form.

So it can be said that something is reducible but not that it is irreducible. Life is so unfair. :disrelieved:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
A hole in the cell wall could have a function. A motor with sort of propeller could have a function (and I think they do inside cells) and the hole with the propeller sticking through it connected to a motor has a function.
I have not seen other parts removed and it still having a function.
Maybe a 40 part motor could be cut into pieces with functions but I have not seen that even if the proteins involved in the motor are homologous with other proteins in the cell.
That is probably because you have not looked properly. The evolution of the rotator flagellum is very very far from being irreducibly complex. It has been explained for many years. A YouTube video is not evidence. But it can describe the evidence. Like this 17 year old video here:


That video describes the findings of this paper:


That paper has on the order of 200 references to peer reviewed articles. Many of them have links to the articles. I would suggest just watching the video, but if you have a month or two you can read the paper and chase down all of the links.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
But consider the theoretical possibility of space and time not connected
The rules of this dimension would be very different from those of space-time.
This can theoretically occur if one could move in space apart from time.
The concept of omnipresent can occur if time and space are disconnected.
A lot of unsubstantiated conjecture and hypotheticals……
all followed by a misunderstanding of quantum theory.
Not particularly impressive.
What does this have to do with a Christian apologetics organization being biased?

We can plan activities in space-time, such as a vacation, without moving from a chair.
I’ll happily concede that humans are capable of imagination, including past, present and future analysis without restrictions on locality.
I’m not sure how the rest follows.
the Gods, by virtue of their divine properties, are not part of space-time. These theoretical ideas allow consciousness to think outside the box of space-time, into divine connections that require separated space and time to explain.
I invite you to answer the same questions I inquired of @Brian2.
how you know
“it is not part of the material universe”,
“not substances made from matter, which you can test”,
or that they have a will, much less “do things according to their will”.
Or if there is anything other than the material universe.
Please show me where this has been objectively demonstrated.
Please explain what is a “spirit” and demonstrate how you know God to be one.

Do these “spirits” and/or God have an affect on anything in the known universe?
Can you give any example of how “spirits” or God is effecting anything on Earth or within the known universe in a demonstrable, measurable way?
If God has an effect in the universe, then that effect should be objectively detectable.
Please show where that has been done using objective evidence.
Before you answer, you may want to also read
post #462……
Perhaps it will save you some time.
 
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