Insurmountable Difficulties with Noah's Ark

[atheistthatsme]

There are a number of questions and points I wish to pose to those creationists out there.

a) Where did all that water come from?
There are number of theories made by creationists as to how the world became flooded. Let me present and rebut these claims.

The only known place for water to naturally occur is the atmosphere. For there to have been enough water to cover earth to the tip of Mount Everest, four billion, billion, million cubic metres of water would have been needed. If so, the atmosphere would have been sitting at around 99% water vapour. Therefore Earth was a dense, apshyxiating planet unable to support life as we know it, therefore eliminating the need for an ark.

Another theory is that water came from extraterrestrial sources, for example meterorites. Such an impact would have been similar to a 12 trillion megaton nuclear bomb. This impact would have risen average temperatures to around 6800 degrees centigrade, hotter than the surface of our sun.

How did Noah gather all the animals from around the world? for example my home continent of Australia, unknown at those times.

How did the ark maintain itself? all those faecies would have created poisonous gases...

Im almost certain that Noah couldn't load 60 000 000 organisms, enormous, untame and microscopic on board. The bible says the ark was loaded in a 24 hr period. This equates to the boarding of over 460 organisms per second.

(Some of my stats are from "Telling Lies for God, Ian Plimer.")

 

[Atheist_Dave]

We have kinda been over this a thousand times, but yes you are correct, there are so many problems with the story, it is scientifically impossible. Another fun thing to point out is that it would be impossible to make a boat that big with the tools and technology available at the time, but you see creationists have one weapon we cannot combat.... ignorance, and of course, that killer phrase, "god can do anything he wants" (hold a boat together, for example)

Neat post.

 

[Scuba Pete]

There are a number of questions and points I wish to pose to those creationists out there.

It's funny that you are seeking natural solutions to a supernatural event.

Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." NIV

But then, if you refuse to believe in God, how could you possibly believe in his power? Until your perspective on God changes, the entire Bible will appear as but a fairy tale.

I Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. NIV

 

[jewscout]

once you get into the science of the flood as an event it comes down to faith.

just like believing in an invisible man in the sky, it's faith.

 

[Scuba Pete]

but you see creationists have one weapon we cannot combat.... ignorance,

Well, you've got us beat with condescension and arrogance.

 

[Scuba Pete]

once you get into the science of the flood as an event it comes down to faith.

The "Flood" happened. It's recorded in more than Christian scripture and tradition. Was it global? It was to them. It's amazing to me that the only ones who seem to be more literalists than the Christian extremists when it comes to reading scripture are those who claim to be atheists. Not all mind you, but quite a few.

When you read the Bible as what it was MEANT to be read: a blog about man trying to find God. Then you stop trying to justify or tear down every single statement and look for the deeper meanings (pun not intended).

just like believing in an invisible man in the sky, it's faith.

Those who can't see God have choosen not to. The evidence is there whether you choose to accept it or not.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Well, you've got us beat with condescension and arrogance.

Well, that's pretty much all some atheists have these days.:ignore:

...For there to have been enough water to cover earth to the tip of Mount Everest...

Since you hold yourself out to be interested in science, I'm sure you are aware that if the world's surface were smooth, the ocean would be about 2 miles deep. Now, unless you can prove exactly what the earth's topography was at the time of the flood, you cannot discount the possibility that it took much less water to completely cover the land masses. Hmmm....didn't think you could.

Since you're an atheist, that means you claim to believe that God does not exist. If that were true, what interest would you have in the exact details of the Biblical account of Noah?? Logic suggests you may have doubts about your atheism. Good luck examining those doubts.

 

[Atheist_Dave]

In hindsight perhaps I should have said "willfully ignorant", sorry if I caused any offense. It just seems to me (well it would do, as Im an atheist) that you would have to block out a hell of a lot of information to really believe these things. But I guess I will never see it from the other side, again, I did not mean that the way it sounded. People who know me will assure you I am not deliberately arrogant.

By the way, congrats on the repartee netdoc

 

[evearael]

I'd like to add that not every person of faith takes a 100% literal translation of the entirety of scripture. There are many levels of meaning within every verse. That said, religion and science are two separate realms of inquiry. At the heart of it, they are both trying to answer the same sorts of questions, but with different starting points and different methods. Science will never be able to completely prove or disprove the existance of God. Neither will religion. Using science to attempt to disprove religion is like using literary analysis to disprove the quadratic formula... they are different fields with different requirements. Religion requires faith, and science requires reason. There is absolutely no reason why a person is barred from both. I have studied religion, philosophy, mathematics, quantum and nuclear physics... I love it all. The choice is not binary. Think of photons... are they particles or waves?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'd like to add that not every person of faith takes a 100% literal translation of the entirety of scripture.

I have a T-shirt idea for that kinda person:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30014

 

[evearael]

A literal interpretation would have us believe God airlifted the all the Children of Israel to Jerusalem 'on the wings of eagles' before the long walk in the desert...

 

[JesusIsGod]

where did all the water come from?
We can find the answer in the Bible in Gen. 1:6-8, it reads from the KJV, 6) And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
May I suggest that the earth at one time had two distinct atmosphere's. God is obviously separating water from the waters in the firmament. With that in mind, from the creation story, fast forward to the flood in Gen. 7:11 we read, 11) In the sixhundreth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
We learn from this verse that not only did the water come from the firmament, the heavens, but also from the "great deep". Water was coming from both from the earth and heaven. We have evidence of this today from geysers, like "Old Faithful".
Also, what evidence do you have that when the flood happened that the air in the atmosphere would mysteriously turn into 99% water vapor? Logic and the natural laws of science would assume that the air in the atmosphere would simply be displaced and not somehow turn into 99% water vapor. Furthermore, the Bible states that the waters not only covered all the high hills and mountain "tip", but it prevailed 15 cubits above the mountains. The Bible does not say Everest specifically, maybe Everest did not exist back then, the highest elevation of the earth could have been lower or higher than Everest, we don't know for sure. I would lean toward the lower side of the spectrum. (I will explain later)

The theory with the meteorites is simply not biblical.

How did Noah gather all the animals from around the world?
There is a well known theory, and very plausible, that states that the earth was at one time a single land mass, this land mass is known as Pangea. Therefore, there would be no water barrier to overcome. If this theory is correct then Everest would not exist yet, and your calculations of 4 billion, billion, million cubic meters of water it would take to cover the earth would be wrong.

How did the ark maintain itself? all those faecies would have created poisonous gases...
????????????
faeces?-in bullfighting, the series of passes at the bull immediately before the kill, for displaying the matador's skill.
or
feces?-waste matter expelled from the bowels; excrement. I think you mean this but, feces from where??????
either way I dont understand what you mean!!!
We are told in the Bible the ark was covered with pitch both inside and outside,Gen. 6:14, although we are not sure what this sealing agent was exactly.

Where in the Bible does it say the ark was loaded in a 24-hour period, and where does it say Noah loaded 60 000 000 organisms.
What the Bible does say in Gen 6:20, that "two of every sort shall come unto thee" I believe God somehow drew the animals to the ark.

 

[jewscout]

A literal interpretation would have us believe God airlifted the all the Children of Israel to Jerusalem 'on the wings of eagles' before the long walk in the desert...

the funny thing is i've read a commentary that says that exact thing...though it's not generally accepted as being accurate, but hey, it makes for funny imagery

 

[atheistthatsme]

"Since you hold yourself out to be interested in science, I'm sure you are aware that if the world's surface were smooth, the ocean would be about 2 miles deep. Now, unless you can prove exactly what the earth's topography was at the time of the flood, you cannot discount the possibility that it took much less water to completely cover the land masses. Hmmm....didn't think you could.

Since you're an atheist, that means you claim to believe that God does not exist. If that were true, what interest would you have in the exact details of the Biblical account of Noah?? Logic suggests you may have doubts about your atheism. Good luck examining those doubts."

---

If the level of earth was roughly sea level, then you are suggesting a rise in the himalayas growing at a rate of more than 2 metres a year. because it occured around 4000 years ago, correct?

You then asked why I give a damn. My response, I'm sick to death of being preached to I'm 15 years old... Logic suggests I'm fed up crazy people chasing after with anh illogical book, trying to demean other religions and dictate to me, no-one can tell me what's right and wrong, especially not a book written 400 years after the life of jesus.

 

[atheistthatsme]

In response to JesusIsGod, your logic is heavily flawed. You've taken the cheap shot by attacking the original (english) way of spelling faecies. Your version is Americanised. Rendering that silly point obsolete. You may suggest that the water came from geysers. This water is expelled from the water table, not the core of the earth, you are suggesting that billions upon billions of cubic metres of water was stored underground possibly, the heat underground would have caused pressure so great that Earth would have blown itself apart.

You claim that the theory of meteorites is not biblical. Uh-oh.. you might be interested to know that when leading creationists themselves were proven wrong, they dug themselves deeper by suggesting that water came from an extraterrestrial sources..

You claim that the world was once liked by the supercontinent known as pangaea. Yes, hundreds of millions of years ago, not 4000 years!!

You asked me about the 99% water vapour thingy. The atmosphere can only contain a certain amount of water. "Rain" as suggested in that theory only occurs in the atmosphere.... You say that Mount Everest may not have been the highest mountain back then, fore sure.. thats quite possible, but mountain ranges 8000 metres in height dont form in hundreds of years, this occurs over millions of years, again you forget that Rome wasn't built in a day.

Okay, even if the ark wasn't built in a day, it would take hundreds of years to load 60 000 000 organisms into the ark. Yes that's right 60 000 000 organisms. Let's say that for some extra-ordinary reason Noah did manage to load them all onto the ark before the flood. How did that tiny ark support all those animals...? how did he (Noah) make sure they didn't reproduce? how did he clean up all the excrement (happy?), how did he survive the diseases? the cramped space? the heat? the smell? Remembering the hole in the top of the ark was 1m (3ft) square... systems to be able to cope would have been thousands of industrial strength ventilation systems.

 

[atheistthatsme]

Quote:Originally Posted by NetDocWell, you've got us beat with condescension and arrogance.

Well all you have is blind faith and ignorance. Give me real evidence. If there was a god, why doesn't he prove himself to us, he seemed to have done it before, as some of you belive. Don't give me "He works on mysterious ways." That's just a petty excuse used by those with no real answer. Here's a fact. The bible was written over 400 years after Jesus, you don't think some misinterpretation may have occured over that period? Especially in those times...

 

[literal visionary]

The only known place for water to naturally occur is the atmosphere. For there to have been enough water to cover earth to the tip of Mount Everest, four billion, billion, million cubic metres of water would have been needed. If so, the atmosphere would have been sitting at around 99% water vapour. Therefore Earth was a dense, apshyxiating planet unable to support life as we know it, therefore eliminating the need for an ark.

explain this comment more,
air pressure did drastically change back then if it didn't flying reptiles wouldn't have been able to fly otherwise- due to there bone structure,
the earth wasn't the same environment today, usually when scientists try to disprove the arc they dont take into account the environmental conditions of the past

How did Noah gather all the animals from around the world? for example my home continent of Australia, unknown at those times.

first of yeah I believe in random breeding of animals they have traits blah blah blah
(god created living organisms that were able to change with their environment)
this doesn't mean i believe the theory of evolution

so there were that many different types of animals back then as there are today
there was like 1 or 2 sssmall species of cats,
not counting fish, and maybe he didn't let the dinosaurs on......

How did the ark maintain itself? all those faecies would have created poisonous gases...

maybe they had a little system where they pushed em off the side of the ship

Im almost certain that Noah couldn't load 60 000 000 organisms, enormous, untame and microscopic on board. The bible says the ark was loaded in a 24 hr period. This equates to the boarding of over 460 organisms per second.

your not counting fish and bug and things that could have survived out side

Another fun thing to point out is that it would be impossible to make a boat that big with the tools and technology available at the time,

ancient peoples weren't any less smart than you and me, you only know what you know because there have been figuring the world out, and your just repeating what these people have discovered with no type of effort whatsoever.
besides if they could sit there and build the pyramids/ temples/ towers that they did,
why couldn't they build a giant baot?

and it says that God did hold the ship together
he is God the creator of the universe in such stiuations im sure he has tweaked things to go the way he wanted.

 

[literal visionary]

why doesn't he prove himself to us

because as a race we are anuses

hes more like you and me than you think, he only created us because he was bored im guessing, i would have done it too,

if you were God would you tell us. no
that would ruin the game

Well all you have is blind faith and ignorance. Give me real evidence.

its hard to extract evidence from scientists who are biased and close minded,
the scientific community, hardly ever changes its stance on anything, sometimes it doesn't look or shrugs away evidence because of its bias

ever been to that town in texas?

The bible was written over 400 years after Jesus, you don't think some misinterpretation may have occured over that period?

i think its more like 200 years, but they copied texts down through the ages,
there are texts that are younger than that too, they weren't first written down, many copies of the biblical texts circulated through the ancient world


with the dino feet walking side by side human feet?
Ive seen when i was a kid.

You claim that the world was once liked by the supercontinent known as pangaea. Yes, hundreds of millions of years ago, not 4000 years!!

obviously your timing doesn't correlate to creationists theories. so in the mind of the creationist it might be 1000 years, besides, they dont really know, they weren't there

 

[literal visionary]

A literal interpretation would have us believe God airlifted the all the Children of Israel to Jerusalem 'on the wings of eagles' before the long walk in the desert...

im not saying either way, but uh he is God, he could pretty much do what he wants,
if he has the resources to create the universe, im sure he could gve a few sweaty hebrews a piggyback ride ,

he could have even used a giant pink elephant if he wanted,
its just that eagles dont have so manyfaecies, and the creator of the universe cant deal with faecies, they are an impossibility to him

 

[atheistthatsme]

"first of yeah I believe in random breeding of animals they have traits blah blah blah
(god created living organisms that were able to change with their environment)
this doesn't mean i believe the theory of evolution"

I'm sorry I didn't get this bit.. can you please elaborate? sorry :S

"so there were that many different types of animals back then as there are today
there was like 1 or 2 sssmall species of cats,
not counting fish, and maybe he didn't let the dinosaurs on...... "
**
I have taken the (known) figure of species, existant and extinct at that time, 30 000 000 x 2

"maybe they had a little system where they pushed em off the side of the ship"
**
This superarc holding 60 000 000 organisms had a "system to push it off"? Please explain your idea, I hope you don't suggest a floor, (most likely thousands of floors) on an angle?



"your not counting fish and bug and things that could have survived out side"

All bugs need a place to land. Land also supports their food... You sy that fish and marine animals don't need a place on the arc, wrong. For example, what type of water flooded earth? was it salt? if so... all of the freshwater species of animals would die. Was it fresh? is so.. all of the aquatic animals living in salt water wouldn't survive the brackish (mixture of fresh and salt) water, as it is unsuitable for marine animals. Or if it was brackish, all marine and freshwater species would die.

"ancient peoples weren't any less smart than you and me, you only know what you know because there have been figuring the world out, and your just repeating what these people have discovered with no type of effort whatsoever.
besides if they could sit there and build the pyramids/ temples/ towers that they did,
why couldn't they build a giant baot?"

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of these pyramids, temples, towers etcetera, would not have been built by Noah and his small family alone... It says "Noah was bidden by god to create an ark." Also, none of this existed 4000 years ago, although I'm not sure about the Pyramids, can someone get me an age for them?

"and it says that God did hold the ship together
he is God the creator of the universe in such stiuations im sure he has tweaked things to go the way he wanted.[/quote]"

So why doesn't god make things happen nicely for us these days? Why can't he solve world poverty? He must be picky or lazy... Either that or he doesn't exist.

Somewhere along the line you said that Creationists think that Pangea existed 4000 Years ago, why is this not recorded... Why is it that fossils existing in Australia date back MILLIONS of years? And that the rate that things occur these days is indicative of the fact that erosion, mountain growth and continental drfit occur at the same rate today as 4000 years ago.