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Incest. Why Not?

I read what you linked and it wasn't what you claimed even though you claimed there were "multiple studies." You can't find one to support your claim.

You didn't read the actual article though, just the abstract.

Another one for you https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0047248480900172

Another one: Evolving a Mechanism to Avoid Sex with Siblings

Would have taken you less time to find these than it took to write that sentence. Whether or not you agree with them is one thing, but no need for the silly game of pretending such studies don't actually exist when you haven't even spent 10 seconds to check whether or not you are objectively wrong.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
You didn't read the actual article though, just the abstract.

Another one for you https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0047248480900172

Another one: Evolving a Mechanism to Avoid Sex with Siblings

Would have taken you less time to find these than it took to write that sentence. Whether or not you agree with them is one thing, but no need for the silly game of pretending such studies don't actually exist when you haven't even spent 10 seconds to check whether or not you are objectively wrong.
I asked you:

Are you claiming that there are multiple studies in existence on attitudes toward incest that show that these attitudes have evolved and are not merely cultural biases?

And you answered 'yes.'

It seems you have a different idea of what "scientific studies" entail than I do. When I ask about the findings of scientific studies, I expect evidence, the result of experiments that have been replicated. You have offered two links to abstracts and one to an article that offer hypotheses that derive from the selfish gene hypothesis that Richard Dawkins popularized 40 years ago.

Since the original hypothesis can't be tested or falsified, opponents argue that it should not even be considered science.
 
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I asked you:

Are you claiming that there are multiple studies in existence on attitudes toward incest that show that these attitudes have evolved and are not merely cultural biases?

And you answered 'yes.'

It seems you have a different idea of what "scientific studies" entail than I do. When I ask about the findings of scientific studies, I expect evidence, the result of experiments that have been replicated. You have offered two links to abstracts and one to an article that offer hypotheses that derive from the selfish gene hypothesis that Richard Dawkins popularized 40 years ago.

Since the original hypothesis can't be tested and falsified, opponents argue that it should not even be considered science.

This contains 2 of my favourite RF tropes :D

1. Person who claims to value scientific scholarship completely dismisses out of hand multiple articles published in credible, peer-reviewed scientific journals purely because they don't support.

2. Poster considers scientific articles behind a paywall not to exist, simply because they can't access them.

Anyway, there's no point in continuing this line of discussion because it's very dull and completely pointless.
 
I have the same burden of proof that any other theory of morality has. It has to be logically sound. Logically, if conscience is our only moral authority, then we have to consider its guidance infallible and universal.

If you'd like to stand in for John Haidt, I believe I can persuade any unbiased, intelligent reader that Haidt's theory is unsound.

I'll open with the axiom that all knowledge begins with a sensed experience. In other words, we have to first notice an effect, as in "cause-and-effect," before we can learn anything. The scientific method begins with an observation.

So, since our long-ago ancestors couldn't see, taste, hear or smell the difference between moral right and wrong, they must have felt it. So, our species learned about morality from the moral intuitions we refer to as conscience.

Therefore, the conscious reasoning faculty of our brain would know absolutely nothing about making moral choices if it hadn't learned from the moral intuitions that emerged from the unconscious.

So, please explain: How did the products of our reasoning minds improve on the quality of our moral judgments? How did the Student surpass the Master? Didn't the products of our reasoning minds simply confuse us?

Our first attempts to write moral rules were simplistic: You should not murder. That's been a big help; hasn't it? How about those massive laws on murder? In the 50 states of the USA, there are 50 different laws. The very same killing might be justified in some states but not in others.

What's your explanation? How did our wonderful reasoning mind acquire the knowledge to surpass conscience and create our laws, rules and commandments to judge moral cases?

I'll give a proper reply to this, but before I do, please can you give a basic overview of what you believe is the universal morality as I don't want to misrepresent you.

For example, would you say it is similar to Secular Humanist morality? Or alternatively, what kind of morality is it closest to in general? Is it individualistic? Collectivist? What purpose does it serve? 'Humanity' or the 'tribe' or the self?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
This contains 2 of my favourite RF tropes :D

1. Person who claims to value scientific scholarship completely dismisses out of hand multiple articles published in credible, peer-reviewed scientific journals purely because they don't support.

2. Poster considers scientific articles behind a paywall not to exist, simply because they can't access them.

Anyway, there's no point in continuing this line of discussion because it's very dull and completely pointless.

Does this face-saving post indicate that you will ignore my challenge to defend Haidt's reasoning in debate?

EDIT: I didn't see Post 84 before posting this. I'll get something together that summarizes my position later.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
I'll give a proper reply to this, but before I do, please can you give a basic overview of what you believe is the universal morality as I don't want to misrepresent you.

For example, would you say it is similar to Secular Humanist morality? Or alternatively, what kind of morality is it closest to in general? Is it individualistic? Collectivist? What purpose does it serve? 'Humanity' or the 'tribe' or the self?
My thinking compares in some ways to Situational Ethics. However, I don't want to find myself defending Situational Ethics.

A soldier who believes he is fighting in a good cause will kill his enemy; but if he is ordered to kill civilians living in enemy territory, his moral intuition (conscience) will immediately protest. The act will feel wrong. If he ignores this moral guidance and obeys the immoral order, his moral intuition will have him feel guilt throughout his lifetime, whenever he remembers his offense. The soldier's religion or lack of religion will not matter: Catholic, Protestant, Atheist or whatever.

We are probably born with the basic structure of a conscience. From the New York Times: "According to Yale psychologist Paul Bloom, humans are born with a hard-wired morality. A deep sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. His research shows that babies and toddlers can judge the goodness and badness of others' actions; they want to reward the good and punish the bad; they act to help those in distress; they feel guilt, shame, pride, and righteous anger."

Some learning is involved. We are probably born like travelers to distant culture. We are born knowing that it is wrong to intentionally cause harm to innocent people. However, we would have to learn the customs of that distant culture to avoid accidentally insulting them. Although the customs are different, intentionally insulting innocent people is wrong in all cultures since it causes harm.

Conscience is cross-cultural but does not seem to be because of cultural biases. If a man kills another in a clear case of self-defense, a jury would find the killing justifiable in every country of the world. But if a woman kills her husband in self-defense, she would not get a fair trial in many cultures. In time, the conscience-driven movement to treat women equally will sweep across the world just as the conscience-driven movement to abolish legal slavery swept across the world. When all cultural biases are eliminated, it will be obvious that conscience is cross-cultural.

Our moral intuitions are probably are aligned with the survival of our species. For example, our conscience guides us to avoid harming innocent people; but it justifies the use of necessary force in self-defense or in the protection of the innocent. Culling our species of the violent bully-troublemakers in our midst and limiting the weight of their factor in our gene pool, serves our survival interests.

Questions of fact involved in a moral situation are the concern of reason:

-- What exactly happened?
-- Who did it?
-- Was an innocent person harmed?
-- Was the harm intended?

Once the questions of fact are answered, moral judgments are the province of conscience; we should feel the answer:

-- Does this act feel morally wrong?
-- What treatment of the offender would be fair?
 

DustyFeet

पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan
from a spiritual perspective, i think it encourages an unhealthy power imbalance between partners. this is obvious for parent/child situations, but i can imagine the same unhealthy dynamic would be hard to avoid even among siblings.
 

DustyFeet

पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan
oops, i'm late to the party... sorry

looks like the "power imbalance" is to be set aside, but the OP asks about immorality.
for me, speaking about moral/immoral is a spiritual discussion
but perhaps the OP intended this be a discussion based on science

sorry times 2
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
oops, i'm late to the party... sorry
looks like the "power imbalance" is to be set aside, but the OP asks about immorality.
Actually, I didn't. I asked for the "best reasoned justification for the unqualified prohibition, legal or not, of incest."

but perhaps the OP intended this be a discussion based on science
Not at all; however, If you feel moral justification is reason enough for an unqualified prohibition of incest, please share your reasoning.

.
 

DustyFeet

पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan
If you feel moral justification is reason enough for an unqualified prohibition of incest, please share your reasoning.

i'm speculating... i think that physical intimacy can be used for manipulation. this happens in conventional relationships, it can certainly happen in unconventional relationships as well. i would expect that intimacy between close family members would be more likely to be destructive emotionally / psychologically, and the temptation of one person to use it as leverage against the other may be more overt. but this is a likelihood, and i suspect that it's possible for outliers, but i don't know anyone to ask. so it's all speculation. and since i consider emotions and psychology to be "spiritual", it is my opinion that this is from a spiritual perspective.

morally, ya know, i can't say i know what G-d wants. i don't want to be judgy, and since i'm pretty sure this is rare and private, i don't want to make any sweeping statements about right and wrong.

plus, if i'm being completely honest, the first characters in the OT, were all part of the same family tree. Not something that makes me feel good. But it's true from my understanding. And while, these characters were arguably distant relatives, i still would be somewhat of a hypocrite if i made a sweeping statement regarding right and wrong in this matter. That position fits into my overall inclusive approach to everything. i don't like horror movies either, or halloween, or lots of things that may be unsavory or non-constructive in my beliefs.

so i guess i vote it's not automatically immoral, but i would discourage it if anyone asked me point blank about it in a serious mature manner.
 
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I have the same burden of proof that any other theory of morality has. It has to be logically sound. Logically, if conscience is our only moral authority, then we have to consider its guidance infallible and universal.

This argument is already logically unsound. There is no reason why it has to be universal, yet you take that as a given.

Humans differ in many things: strength, eyesight, ability to see colours, intelligence, emotional intelligence, spatial awareness, etc.

The 2nd logical error is to assume it is infallible, at least in the sense of producing a humanistic kind of ethics (I assume you believe this, it wasn't clear from your post, if not please correct me).

In addition we are subject to emotions and biases, so why assume infallibility when we are very flawed creatures.

Further, moral indignation drives many atrocities. Many terrorists, for example, believe they are fighting a very ethical cause.

There is a quote (can't remember from who) which goes roughly: "Murder done for evil reasons is the anomaly, the majority of killings in human history have been done in pursuit of a [subjectively] noble cause".


I'll open with the axiom that all knowledge begins with a sensed experience. In other words, we have to first notice an effect, as in "cause-and-effect," before we can learn anything. The scientific method begins with an observation.

So, since our long-ago ancestors couldn't see, taste, hear or smell the difference between moral right and wrong, they must have felt it. So, our species learned about morality from the moral intuitions we refer to as conscience.

Therefore, the conscious reasoning faculty of our brain would know absolutely nothing about making moral choices if it hadn't learned from the moral intuitions that emerged from the unconscious.

If conscience derives from sensory experience, and sensory experience varies greatly from person to person, why should we assume universality?

We are pattern seeking creatures, although we perceive patterns in a very flawed manner. We start with a base sense of empathy, fairness, etc., although one which varies from person to person, and then this interacts with our sensory experience to create our own sense of morality.

According to Yale psychologist Paul Bloom, humans are born with a hard-wired morality. A deep sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. His research shows that babies and toddlers can judge the goodness and badness of others' actions; they want to reward the good and punish the bad; they act to help those in distress; they feel guilt, shame, pride, and righteous anger."

This is another scientific perspective that rejects your overall contention. Bloom accepts differences between individuals:

What is the strongest proof that morality has a genetic component, that two people may have differing moral views because of their genes?

There have been the usual sorts of behavioral genetics studies—adopted children, twins separated at birth, that sort of thing—that find evidence for heritability in capacities such as empathy, which is plainly related to morality.

The Moral Life of Babies

Is there any research that supports you actual position, as the ones you have quoted support the opposite: moral diversity rather than universalism.

He also notes this on the concept of 'infallibility' and resining:

Are there ways that the moral emotions you mentioned — like “righteous anger” — lead to behavior that we would call “immoral”?

Absolutely. Our emotions have evolved for simpler times. They are not well calibrated for the modern world, where we are surrounded by countless strangers and have access to cars, guns, and the Internet. It makes sense to be outraged when you are deceived by a friend or when someone you love is wronged. This can be a moral response. But it is irrational—and often immoral—when the same anger is acted upon towards someone who cuts you off on the highway. Worse, righteous anger can provoke international confrontations that can lead to the death of millions. Anger is one thing when you are armed with your fists and a stick; quite another when you have an army and nuclear weapons.

It’s not just anger, though. All of the moral emotions can have disastrous effects. As I argue in a recent New Yorker article, I think this is true even for empathy—the capacity to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, to feel their pleasure and their pain. When it comes to personal relationships, empathy can be a good thing—I wouldn’t want a parent, a child, or a spouse who lacked empathy. But, just as with anger, empathy doesn’t scale. It is because of our empathetic responses that we care more about a little girl stuck in a well than about billions being affected in the future by climate change. The girl elicits empathy; statistical future harms do not. To the extent that we can recognize, and act upon, serious threats that don’t have identifiable victims, we are relying on rational deliberation, not gut responses.

Conscience is cross-cultural but does not seem to be because of cultural biases. If a man kills another in a clear case of self-defense, a jury would find the killing justifiable in every country of the world. But if a woman kills her husband in self-defense, she would not get a fair trial in many cultures. In time, the conscience-driven movement to treat women equally will sweep across the world just as the conscience-driven movement to abolish legal slavery swept across the world. When all cultural biases are eliminated, it will be obvious that conscience is cross-cultural.

You also make another baseless claim: that cultural biases can be eliminated. Culture is an indelible aspect of human socialisation and, outside of wishful thinking based on an ideology invoking a progressive teleology, there is no reason to assume a universal culture will appear.

Our moral intuitions are probably are aligned with the survival of our species.

Our moral intuitions are probably related to our need to form groups, we didn't evolve to think at abstract constructs like Humanity.

It is almost undeniable that our cognition is based around in/out group divisions, and we are biased towards our in group and against the out group.

It can become easy to justify cruelty towards out groups, as we see from science, history and in the behaviour of our closest relatives, chimps.

A soldier who believes he is fighting in a good cause will kill his enemy; but if he is ordered to kill civilians living in enemy territory, his moral intuition (conscience) will immediately protest. The act will feel wrong. If he ignores this moral guidance and obeys the immoral order, his moral intuition will have him feel guilt throughout his lifetime, whenever he remembers his offense.

History would say otherwise. Innocence is a very malleable concept, it's very easy to see civilians as 'fair game'.


Once the questions of fact are answered, moral judgments are the province of conscience; we should feel the answer:

-- Does this act feel morally wrong?
-- What treatment of the offender would be fair?

Most ethical decisions exist in morally grey areas. Frequently we face moral dilemmas where one group benefits and another loses out. There is often no offender and the 'best' course of action will depend on numerous axioms which guide the moral judgement.

So, please explain: How did the products of our reasoning minds improve on the quality of our moral judgments? How did the Student surpass the Master? Didn't the products of our reasoning minds simply confuse us?

As you said, conscience comes from sensory experience. We are exposed to events and other people's ideas. Our mind is a complete system, existing as part of numerous dynamic feedback loops. Even if everything was intuition, our intuition can take into account other people's reasoning that we have been exposed to.

Human nature is also complex with violence and kindness, vindictiveness and empathy all parts of our evolved cognition. We didn't come down from the trees as warm, fuzzy, universal Humanists. We are tribal and competitive, like our primate relatives

Modern moralities evolved over time due to cultural, social and technological changes as part of a dynamic feedback system. As part of this, we have mitigated some of the darker aspects of human nature, although that doesn't mean they have disappeared.

Your argument is pretty much a retelling of the Biblical Fall couched in secular language. We started off perfect until we became corrupted by events.

Overall, some of the reasons your argument is logically unsound:

1) Your claim of universalism is completely unsupported. Also if morality is partially genetic, and we are genetically diverse, why assume morality is magically exempt from this?
2) Infallibility ignores our very human flaws, even our vision necessarily incorporates bias and guesswork, yet morality is again magically exempt.
3) Even assuming infallibility, there is no reason to assume it reflects a modern Humanistic ideology focused on an abstract 'greater good of Humanity'.
4) Culture grows out of collective experience, and experience is diverse hence cultures are diverse. There is no reason to assume culture will disappear of become universalised.
5) Most of morality relates to grey areas, yet you have not discussed how a universal, infallible morality works in such areas.
6) In/out groups are an evolved, and indelible aspect of our cognition, yet you ignore this.
7) Reasoned arguments are part of our sensory experience and thus feedback into intuition.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
This argument is already logically unsound. There is no reason why it has to be universal, yet you take that as a given.

Humans differ in many things: strength, eyesight, ability to see colours, intelligence, emotional intelligence, spatial awareness, etc.
You misunderstood my use of the word 'universal.' I meant that our moral intuition is cross-cultural as I've explained in the paragraph which begins: "Conscience is cross-cultural but does not seem to be because of cultural biases..."


The 2nd logical error is to assume it is infallible, at least in the sense of producing a humanistic kind of ethics (I assume you believe this, it wasn't clear from your post, if not please correct me).

In addition we are subject to emotions and biases, so why assume infallibility when we are very flawed creatures.

Further, moral indignation drives many atrocities. Many terrorists, for example, believe they are fighting a very ethical cause.

There is a quote (can't remember from who) which goes roughly: "Murder done for evil reasons is the anomaly, the majority of killings in human history have been done in pursuit of a [subjectively] noble cause".
You are confused. Conscience is a moral guide. Since it's the only moral authority we have, we should consider it infallible and trust its guidance. You are faulting conscience for the mistakes people make when they ignore their conscience.

You also don't seem to understand how conscience deals with 'intent.' The simplest example is the traffic accident. When harm is caused to innocent people unintentionally the law considers it negligence but not a crime because the act is not immoral. However, when the harm done to others is an act of road rage, it is a crime because the act is immoral. The law is aligned with conscience because the lawmakers used their consciences to write them.

In the terrorist example you cite, to judge intent, one would have to be a mind reader to judge terrorists individually. There are probably some who are no more guilty of wrongdoing than the mother of unsound mind is when she kills her children at God's instruction.

If conscience derives from sensory experience, and sensory experience varies greatly from person to person, why should we assume universality?
You misread. I wrote that conscience provided the sensory experience that our conscious reasoning faculty learned from.

This is another scientific perspective that rejects your overall contention. Bloom accepts differences between individuals:
I don't know what Bloom believes on this topic, nor do you. His research supported my claim that conscience is probably innate. This is a huge factor because the rationalist moral theory, Kohlberg specifically, is still taught in Psychology classes. His theory is that morality is taught and learned in stages of development.

I waited 20 years before Haidt's research verified my logical deduction that intuition and not reason explained our moral judgments. There isn't much research on the topic, but what there has been supports my theory. As for the social scientists themselves, they don't agree with me or each other.

For reasons too complex to explain here, I don't think Harvard's online Moral Sense Test is well-conceived. Still, it might be good enough to show that conscience is cross-cultural and uniform across all demographics.

You also make another baseless claim: that cultural biases can be eliminated. Culture is an indelible aspect of human socialisation and, outside of wishful thinking based on an ideology invoking a progressive teleology, there is no reason to assume a universal culture will appear.
The cultural bias known as slavery was once condoned in all cultures. Now it's condoned in none. The cultural biases that treat women and homosexuals as inferior are disappearing. You can just ignore this evidence if you like, but reasonable minds should not.

Our moral intuitions are probably related to our need to form groups, we didn't evolve to think at abstract constructs like Humanity. It is almost undeniable that our cognition is based around in/out group divisions, and we are biased towards our in group and against the out group.
The in/out group hypothesis is a weak theory that explains very little. It will be forgotten in a few years.

Now that you bring it up, though, I recall that Jon Haidt relied on this theory and has group pride listed among his key virtues. He hasn't figured out yet that group pride is disguised arrogance since we know intuitively that the man who is extremely proud of being Irish and Catholic would be just as proud if, by some twist of fate, had been raised to think of himself as German and Lutheran. It isn't that his groups are wonderful. It's that HE is wonderful and they're his groups.

Most ethical decisions exist in morally grey areas. Frequently we face moral dilemmas where one group benefits and another loses out. There is often no offender and the 'best' course of action will depend on numerous axioms which guide the moral judgement.
That's not true. There is always an offender in a war or any other conflict between groups.

As you said, conscience comes from sensory experience.
Never said that.

Your argument is pretty much a retelling of the Biblical Fall couched in secular language. We started off perfect until we became corrupted by events.
I can't imagine how you jumped to the conclusion that my thinking would only be consistent if humans began as perfect.

Overall, some of the reasons your argument is logically unsound:

1) Your claim of universalism is completely unsupported. Also if morality is partially genetic, and we are genetically diverse, why assume morality is magically exempt from this?
As noted earlier, you misunderstood that for me "universal" meant cross-cultural.

I don't assume "magical exemptions" because I don't assume to know how conscience comes into being. I know only that it emerges from the powerful unconscious mind as immediate moral guidance.

2) Infallibility ignores our very human flaws, even our vision necessarily incorporates bias and guesswork, yet morality is again magically exempt.
You are really struggling with a very simple deduction: Since conscience is our only moral authority, we have no choice but to regard it as infallible -- because we have no other authoritative source with which to challenge its guidance.

3) Even assuming infallibility, there is no reason to assume it reflects a modern Humanistic ideology focused on an abstract 'greater good of Humanity'.
I don't assume anything. My guess is that conscience is aligned with the survival of our species. And, if true, that's good.
4) Culture grows out of collective experience, and experience is diverse hence cultures are diverse. There is no reason to assume culture will disappear of become universalised.
Rebutted earlier.

5) Most of morality relates to grey areas, yet you have not discussed how a universal, infallible morality works in such areas.
You see grey areas because your reasoning mind is confusing you.
6) In/out groups are an evolved, and indelible aspect of our cognition, yet you ignore this.
Rebutted earlier.

7) Reasoned arguments are part of our sensory experience and thus feedback into intuition.
As explained earlier, this is not possible. You need to grasp that our reasoning minds can only learn from sensory experience. They can't create it.

All knowledge acquired by reasoning derives from the senses. The knowledge we have of morality derives from the intuition of conscience which is sensed as feelings which emerge from the unconscious..

Clarification: It didn't occur to me until after posting the above that my use of the word "universal" applies two ways. I see conscience as universal meaning cross-cultural AND universal meaning that all humans have the same conscience (assuming they aren't born without one).
 
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You misunderstood my use of the word 'universal.' I meant that our moral intuition is cross-cultural as I've explained in the paragraph which begins: "Conscience is cross-cultural but does not seem to be because of cultural biases..."

What do you see as universal/cross-cultural? You always refer to extreme examples like murder, but the vast majority of our morality relates to mundane, even trivial matters. For example, is it wrong to overclaim on expenses from your company? Is it ok to punch someone in the face if they are being offensive to you? Is it ok for a low income person to steal food from a supermarket owned by a wealthy and exploitative corporation?

Our mind can be thought of as like a computer in that it has hardware, which is what you are discussing, and software, which is the cultural component. We all have similar, although certainly not identical, hardware, but run very different software.

As you note, in some people, such as psychopaths, the hardware doesn't function properly leading to an absence of empathy. Others have above/below average hardware relating to such things. All diverse groups run different software though, which puts differing importance on different things.

While there might be a case that limited aspects of our morality are products of the hardware alone, much of it is established by the software, culture.

Do you believe we can either get rid of, or standardise the software?

You are confused. Conscience is a moral guide. Since it's the only moral authority we have, we should consider it infallible and trust its guidance. You are faulting conscience for the mistakes people make when they ignore their conscience.

Conscience is only one of multiple interconnected functions of cognition. Why assume such things are necessarily benevolent towards a made up concept like Humanity? Why assume conscience operates at the level of the species, rather than the group or individual?

You also don't seem to understand how conscience deals with 'intent.' The simplest example is the traffic accident. When harm is caused to innocent people unintentionally the law considers it negligence but not a crime because the act is not immoral.

Negligence can be considered both criminal and immoral, and often is.

I don't know what Bloom believes on this topic, nor do you.

I literally quoted him saying what he believed on this topic.

The in/out group hypothesis is a weak theory that explains very little. It will be forgotten in a few years.

It is far better supported by scientific evidence than your theory is, why do you think it is weak? What evidence do you have to support this? Studies have repeatedly shown that even assigning people to completely arbitrary groups (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts) causes them to discriminate against the other, and favour their own side. This is caused by the hardware component of the brain, not a cultural bias.

Coalitional Instincts
Every human—not excepting scientists—bears the whole stamp of the human condition. This includes evolved neural programs specialized for navigating the world of coalitions—teams, not groups. (Although the concept of coalitional instincts has emerged over recent decades, there is no mutually-agreed-upon term for this concept yet.) These programs enable us and induce us to form, maintain, join, support, recognize, defend, defect from, factionalize, exploit, resist, subordinate, distrust, dislike, oppose, and attack coalitions. Coalitions are sets of individuals interpreted by their members and/or by others as sharing a common abstract identity (including propensities to act as a unit, to defend joint interests, and to have shared mental states and other properties of a single human agent, such as status and prerogatives).

Why do we see the world this way? Most species do not and cannot... Ancestrally, evolving the neural code to crack these problems supercharged the ability to successfully compete for access to reproductively limiting resources. Fatefully, we are descended solely from those better equipped with coalitional instincts...

The primary function that drove the evolution of coalitions is the amplification of the power of its members in conflicts with non-members. This function explains a number of otherwise puzzling phenomena. For example, ancestrally, if you had no coalition you were nakedly at the mercy of everyone else, so the instinct to belong to a coalition has urgency, preexisting and superseding any policy-driven basis for membership. This is why group beliefs are free to be so weird. Since coalitional programs evolved to promote the self-interest of the coalition’s membership (in dominance, status, legitimacy, resources, moral force, etc.), even coalitions whose organizing ideology originates (ostensibly) to promote human welfare often slide into the most extreme forms of oppression, in complete contradiction to the putative values of the group. Indeed, morally wrong-footing rivals is one point of ideology, and once everyone agrees on something (slavery is wrong) it ceases to be a significant moral issue because it no longer shows local rivals in a bad light. Many argue that there are more slaves in the world today than in the 19th century. Yet because one’s political rivals cannot be delegitimized by being on the wrong side of slavery, few care to be active abolitionists anymore, compared to being, say, speech police.

Moreover, to earn membership in a group you must send signals that clearly indicate that you differentially support it, compared to rival groups. Hence, optimal weighting of beliefs and communications in the individual mind will make it feel good to think and express content conforming to and flattering to one’s group’s shared beliefs and to attack and misrepresent rival groups. The more biased away from neutral truth, the better the communication functions to affirm coalitional identity, generating polarization in excess of actual policy disagreements. Communications of practical and functional truths are generally useless as differential signals, because any honest person might say them regardless of coalitional loyalty. In contrast, unusual, exaggerated beliefs—such as supernatural beliefs (e.g., god is three persons but also one person), alarmism, conspiracies, or hyperbolic comparisons—are unlikely to be said except as expressive of identity, because there is no external reality to motivate nonmembers to speak absurdities.

Edge.org


Now that you bring it up, though, I recall that Jon Haidt relied on this theory and has group pride listed among his key virtues. He hasn't figured out yet that group pride is disguised arrogance since we know intuitively that the man who is extremely proud of being Irish and Catholic would be just as proud if, by some twist of fate, had been raised to think of himself as German and Lutheran. It isn't that his groups are wonderful. It's that HE is wonderful and they're his groups.

This is a naive view of coalition identity, for a start there is no evidence that we can function cognitively without a sense of group identity. Do you consider membership of a community of chimps to be 'disguised arrogance'?

That's not true. There is always an offender in a war or any other conflict between groups.

And most morality has nothing to do with war or conflict.

I can't imagine how you jumped to the conclusion that my thinking would only be consistent if humans began as perfect.

If conscience is universal, and differences are simply cultural biases, what were we like before these diverse cultures evolved? If conscience is our only guide and is only led astray by culture, then how did these awful cultures develop?
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
What do you see as universal/cross-cultural?
Conscience is the same in individuals, therefore it is also the same in all cultures.

You always refer to extreme examples like murder, but the vast majority of our morality relates to mundane, even trivial matters. For example, is it wrong to overclaim on expenses from your company? Is it ok to punch someone in the face if they are being offensive to you? Is it ok for a low income person to steal food from a supermarket owned by a wealthy and exploitative corporation?
Each of those cases would be judged on its own. The conscience of a jury unbiased on the case would rule. The judgments would not be subjective. It doesn't matter that minor matters would not warrant a jury trial. The unbiased jury is the standard for judgment.

Our mind can be thought of as like a computer in that it has hardware, which is what you are discussing, and software, which is the cultural component. We all have similar, although certainly not identical, hardware, but run very different software.
That's a false analogy. Assuming we were born with normal brains, the basic nature of our software is the same. For example, the basic nature of intelligence is the same even if the levels of ability happen in a range.
As you note, in some people, such as psychopaths, the hardware doesn't function properly leading to an absence of empathy. Others have above/below average hardware relating to such things. All diverse groups run different software though, which puts differing importance on different things.
That's not true about our topic: conscience.

While there might be a case that limited aspects of our morality are products of the hardware alone, much of it is established by the software, culture.

Do you believe we can either get rid of, or standardise the software
You are continuing your points based on your false analogy

Conscience is only one of multiple interconnected functions of cognition. Why assume such things are necessarily benevolent towards a made up concept like Humanity?
It's not an assumption, it's a deduction reached by observing human nature.

Why assume conscience operates at the level of the species, rather than the group or individual?
Conscience DOES operate at the individual level but since we all have one its a feature of our species as well.

Negligence can be considered both criminal and immoral, and often is.
If it often is then you should have no problem giving me one example.

I literally quoted him saying what he believed on this topic.
That's baloney but it doesn't matter anyway. The opinions of social scientists don't agree on anything yet.

It is far better supported by scientific evidence than your theory is, why do you think it is weak? What evidence do you have to support this?

Studies have repeatedly shown that even assigning people to completely arbitrary groups (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts) causes them to discriminate against the other, and favour their own side. This is caused by the hardware component of the brain, not a cultural bias.
It's not caused by a "hardware component of the brain" -- whatever that is -- and it isn't caused by a cultural bias either. It's caused by an unconscious need. (Freud and other psychologists were right that unconscious needs motivate our behavior) Specifically, the need to feel superior to others....I explained earlier why group pride should be thought of as disguised arrogance. Arrogance affects all group attachments.

I haven't the time just now to examine your somewhat lengthy comments about coalitions.

Do you consider membership of a community of chimps to be 'disguised arrogance'?
I've never thought about it since we humans are not chimps, I don't assume that we are alike in all respects and I don't know what the differences are.

If conscience is universal, and differences are simply cultural biases, what were we like before these diverse cultures evolved? If conscience is our only guide and is only led astray by culture, then how did these awful cultures develop?
My guess is that the unconscious need to feel superior to others has always existed in our species; and since it appears to be weakening, resulting in moral progress, my deduction is that we humans were an even more violent bunch at one time. I've read that it was found that as much as15% of the population died violent deaths in some of the old digs.
 
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That's a false analogy. Assuming we were born with normal brains, the basic nature of our software is the same.

The analogy was from the evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein.

Seems to be a bit of a trend where you instantly dismiss every scientific concept that goes against what you want to be true.

I haven't the time to examine your somewhat lengthy comments about coalitions.

Not my comments. Was a quote from an evolutionary psychologist, again dismissed out of hand.

If it often is then you should have no problem giving me one example.

A driver killing someone when they are drunk, speeding or sending a text message for example. Serious medical negligence would be another.

The best example though would be one aspect of Hammurabi's Code, whereby if a building collapsed and killed one of its inhabitants, then the chief builder would be put to death.

It's not an assumption, it's a deduction reached by observing human nature.

In other words, an assumption.

Out of interest, how much peer-reviewed scientific research would it take to get you to reconsider your opinion that your localised personal observations, which are subject to all manner of cognitive biases, and based on a tiny, tiny sample of humanity are highly accurate?

If conscience functions at the individual level as art of a group of interconnected cognitive functions there is no evolutionary reason why this necessitates a flawlessly moral instinct at the level of Humanity.

For example, the evolutionary biologist Robert Kurzban wrote a book Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind which outlines how our brain's hardware makes us think in inconsistent ways and is inherently biased towards ourselves. Or alternatively Robert Trivers' Deceit and Self-Deception: Fooling Yourself the Better to Fool Others, which argues that our brain fools us into thinking certain things are true as this makes us better at convincing others that they are true. It's much easier to be selfish when you think you are being fair and it's much easier to lie when you believe you are telling the truth. This explains why we often think our ideas arrive from being rational, fair and impartial, whereas others who disagree are biased or irrational.

The conscience of a jury unbiased on the case would rule.

Where do you get a jury unbiased by culture and experience? Such a thing doesn't exist in reality and ever will.

That's baloney

??????

At least you didn't dismiss this one out of hand, you just pretended it didn't exist instead :D

This is another scientific perspective that rejects your overall contention. Bloom accepts differences between individuals:

What is the strongest proof that morality has a genetic component, that two people may have differing moral views because of their genes?

There have been the usual sorts of behavioral genetics studies—adopted children, twins separated at birth, that sort of thing—that find evidence for heritability in capacities such as empathy, which is plainly related to morality.

The Moral Life of Babies

Is there any research that supports you actual position, as the ones you have quoted support the opposite: moral diversity rather than universalism.

He also notes this on the concept of 'infallibility' and resining:

Are there ways that the moral emotions you mentioned — like “righteous anger” — lead to behavior that we would call “immoral”?

Absolutely. Our emotions have evolved for simpler times. They are not well calibrated for the modern world, where we are surrounded by countless strangers and have access to cars, guns, and the Internet. It makes sense to be outraged when you are deceived by a friend or when someone you love is wronged. This can be a moral response. But it is irrational—and often immoral—when the same anger is acted upon towards someone who cuts you off on the highway. Worse, righteous anger can provoke international confrontations that can lead to the death of millions. Anger is one thing when you are armed with your fists and a stick; quite another when you have an army and nuclear weapons.

It’s not just anger, though. All of the moral emotions can have disastrous effects. As I argue in a recent New Yorker article, I think this is true even for empathy—the capacity to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, to feel their pleasure and their pain. When it comes to personal relationships, empathy can be a good thing—I wouldn’t want a parent, a child, or a spouse who lacked empathy. But, just as with anger, empathy doesn’t scale. It is because of our empathetic responses that we care more about a little girl stuck in a well than about billions being affected in the future by climate change. The girl elicits empathy; statistical future harms do not. To the extent that we can recognize, and act upon, serious threats that don’t have identifiable victims, we are relying on rational deliberation, not gut responses.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
The analogy was from the evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein.
Since it's a dumb statement, I doubt that. But if I'm wrong you can provide a link to that precise analogy.

Seems to be a bit of a trend where you instantly dismiss every scientific concept that goes against what you want to be true.
It may seem that way to you because I've been following the science on morality for 20 years while you're just playing catch up.
Not my comments. Was a quote from an evolutionary psychologist, again dismissed out of hand.
You have a very bad habit of twisting your opponent's words in debate. I didn't dismiss anything.

A driver killing someone when they are drunk, speeding or sending a text message for example. Serious medical negligence would be another.
Driving while drunk is considered an intentional act therefore it's immoral and a crime and not negligence.

Speeding, sending a text message and medical negligence are negligent acts and not considered immoral therefore not crimes. All these judgments are aligned with conscience.

The best example though would be one aspect of Hammurabi's Code, whereby if a building collapsed and killed one of its inhabitants, then the chief builder would be put to death.
That very old law no longer exists because it was not aligned with the judgment of conscience.

Out of interest, how much peer-reviewed scientific research would it take to get you to reconsider your opinion that your localised personal observations, which are subject to all manner of cognitive biases, and based on a tiny, tiny sample of humanity are highly accurate?
Your question indicates that you haven't understood me or that you simply wish to annoy me.

If conscience functions at the individual level as art of a group of interconnected cognitive functions there is no evolutionary reason why this necessitates a flawlessly moral instinct at the level of Humanity.For example, the evolutionary biologist Robert Kurzban wrote a book Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind which outlines how our brain's hardware makes us think in inconsistent ways and is inherently biased towards ourselves. Or alternatively Robert Trivers' Deceit and Self-Deception: Fooling Yourself the Better to Fool Others, which argues that our brain fools us into thinking certain things are true as this makes us better at convincing others that they are true. It's much easier to be selfish when you think you are being fair and it's much easier to lie when you believe you are telling the truth. This explains why we often think our ideas arrive from being rational, fair and impartial, whereas others who disagree are biased or irrational.
There's no question that our rational minds are tricky devils. Most brilliant rational minds, theologians and philosophers, have for at least three centuries considered the judgments of conscience to be judgments of reason.They were wrong.
Where do you get a jury unbiased by culture and experience? Such a thing doesn't exist in reality and ever will.
You mean that you don't understand that the jury only has to be unbiased on the relevant case? Sometimes that requires moving the case to a different jurisdiction but not usually.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
Coalitional Instincts
Every human—not excepting scientists—bears the whole stamp of the human condition. This includes evolved neural programs specialized for navigating the world of coalitions—teams, not groups. (Although the concept of coalitional instincts has emerged over recent decades, there is no mutually-agreed-upon term for this concept yet.) These programs enable us and induce us to form, maintain, join, support, recognize, defend, defect from, factionalize, exploit, resist, subordinate, distrust, dislike, oppose, and attack coalitions. Coalitions are sets of individuals interpreted by their members and/or by others as sharing a common abstract identity (including propensities to act as a unit, to defend joint interests, and to have shared mental states and other properties of a single human agent, such as status and prerogatives).

Why do we see the world this way? Most species do not and cannot... Ancestrally, evolving the neural code to crack these problems supercharged the ability to successfully compete for access to reproductively limiting resources. Fatefully, we are descended solely from those better equipped with coalitional instincts...

The primary function that drove the evolution of coalitions is the amplification of the power of its members in conflicts with non-members. This function explains a number of otherwise puzzling phenomena. For example, ancestrally, if you had no coalition you were nakedly at the mercy of everyone else, so the instinct to belong to a coalition has urgency, preexisting and superseding any policy-driven basis for membership. This is why group beliefs are free to be so weird. Since coalitional programs evolved to promote the self-interest of the coalition’s membership (in dominance, status, legitimacy, resources, moral force, etc.), even coalitions whose organizing ideology originates (ostensibly) to promote human welfare often slide into the most extreme forms of oppression, in complete contradiction to the putative values of the group. Indeed, morally wrong-footing rivals is one point of ideology, and once everyone agrees on something (slavery is wrong) it ceases to be a significant moral issue because it no longer shows local rivals in a bad light. Many argue that there are more slaves in the world today than in the 19th century. Yet because one’s political rivals cannot be delegitimized by being on the wrong side of slavery, few care to be active abolitionists anymore, compared to being, say, speech police.

Moreover, to earn membership in a group you must send signals that clearly indicate that you differentially support it, compared to rival groups. Hence, optimal weighting of beliefs and communications in the individual mind will make it feel good to think and express content conforming to and flattering to one’s group’s shared beliefs and to attack and misrepresent rival groups. The more biased away from neutral truth, the better the communication functions to affirm coalitional identity, generating polarization in excess of actual policy disagreements. Communications of practical and functional truths are generally useless as differential signals, because any honest person might say them regardless of coalitional loyalty. In contrast, unusual, exaggerated beliefs—such as supernatural beliefs (e.g., god is three persons but also one person), alarmism, conspiracies, or hyperbolic comparisons—are unlikely to be said except as expressive of identity, because there is no external reality to motivate nonmembers to speak absurdities.

Edge.org
I've had the chance now to read what you linked written by John Tooby and I wonder why he went out of his way to avoid the word "cooperation" when that seems to be much of what he's talking about. The value in forming teams and groups to cooperate is undeniable.

I don't understand why you think Tooby's article opposes my position unless it's on my statement that group pride is disguised arrogance. He explains it differently but that's not a surprise because that was an insight that I picked up from a philosopher, not a scientist. I adopted it because it makes absolute sense. Here it is again:

Group pride, usually regarded as a virtue, is actually disguised arrogance. We know intuitively that the man who is exceptionally proud of being Irish and Catholic would be just as proud if he had, by some twist of fate, been raised to think of himself as German and Lutheran. It's not that he thinks of his groups as wonderful, it's that HE is wonderful and they are HIS groups.

Within the group, those with the strongest need to feel superior to others will be prejudiced against other groups. This prejudice has caused most of the wars in human history.

Our race is superior to theirs!
Our nation is superior to theirs!
Our religion is superior to theirs!

Earlier you wrote: Studies have repeatedly shown that even assigning people to completely arbitrary groups (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts) causes them to discriminate against the other, and favour their own side.

I haven't seen this research but if it's as you claim, it would support my contention that group pride is disguised arrogance because there is no other explanation; nothing inherent in the group and none of the reasons that Tooby mentions, to take pride in one's group and be prejudiced against the others.
 
I haven't seen this research but if it's as you claim, it would support my contention that group pride is disguised arrogance because there is no other explanation; nothing inherent in the group and none of the reasons that Tooby mentions, to take pride in one's group and be prejudiced against the others.

Which is exactly the point. A purely arbitrary group in which one takes no explicit pride still promotes an in/out group mentality as it is how we evolved to see the world. Yet, you argue we can just stop thinking like this if we want to, which is far fetched.

We are biased to see our group as best because this creates group loyalty which furthers the interests of everyone who belongs to the group. This results from our simian ancestry, and it is only our conceit that makes us think we can transcend our animalistic limitations.

Driving while drunk is considered an intentional act therefore it's immoral and a crime and not negligence.

Speeding, sending a text message and medical negligence are negligent acts and not considered immoral therefore not crimes. All these judgments are aligned with conscience.

Many people drive while over the limit because they miscalculate their blood alcohol level the day after drinking. This is not intentional

Criminal negligence is, as the name suggests, a crime (thus immoral): Criminal negligence - Wikipedia

Negligence is lower than recklessness is lower than intentional, yet all 3 may be considered criminal and may be prosecuted.

You mean that you don't understand that the jury only has to be unbiased on the relevant case? Sometimes that requires moving the case to a different jurisdiction but not usually.

There is no such thing as unbiased, only less biased. So many things are subjective that culture and experience often necessarily play a role. Murder v manslaughter, self-defence v excessive use of force, etc.

Was watching a program recently about a murder trial, and the lawyer was explaining that he believed he had no chance of not guilty, so he aimed for a hung jury leading to a mistrial. If he could fo this twice, the case might be dismissed.

Can't quite remember the specifics, but, in the jury selection process, he was looking for unmarried, overweight women in their 30s/40s. Not because they would be biased, but because they would be better able to empathise with his client as they are likely to feel insecure about their weight and can remember being insulted about it and/or feeling left out.



I've had the chance now to read what you linked written by John Tooby and I wonder why he went out of his way to avoid the word "cooperation" when that seems to be much of what he's talking about. The value in forming teams and groups to cooperate is undeniable.

It is further evidence for the in/out group nature of our cognition: "The primary function that drove the evolution of coalitions is the amplification of the power of its members in conflicts with non-members."

Belonging to a group necessitates in/out group, once people start to agree on something, we define ourselves via new points of difference. Our identity draws as much from who we are not, as from who we are:

"Indeed, morally wrong-footing rivals is one point of ideology, and once everyone agrees on something (slavery is wrong) it ceases to be a significant moral issue because it no longer shows local rivals in a bad light. Many argue that there are more slaves in the world today than in the 19th century. Yet because one’s political rivals cannot be delegitimized by being on the wrong side of slavery, few care to be active abolitionists anymore, compared to being, say, speech police."

Since it's a dumb statement, I doubt that. But if I'm wrong you can provide a link to that precise analogy.

Very odd to accuse someone of lying about a very basic point that you could have googled to check yourself.

It's in this discussion: Biology and culture. He explains that the 'software' is what is responsible for our great acheievements and 'progress', as our biology evolves far too slowly to do this. As such he basically argues that any potential 'solutions' are really cultural solutions, which is very different from your perspective.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Which is exactly the point. A purely arbitrary group in which one takes no explicit pride still promotes an in/out group mentality as it is how we evolved to see the world. Yet, you argue we can just stop thinking like this if we want to, which is far fetched.
It isn't far-fetched at all. In fact, it has been happening on a global scale.

The most obvious example of a group realizing that its behavior was arrogant, and backing away from it, is the 1960s Catholic Church's backing away from its centuries-old stance that it was the only path to Heaven. This arrogant position, that heaven was a country club for Catholics caused much resentment. Today, Pope Francis is even implying that Atheists might make the grade.

Many people drive while over the limit because they miscalculate their blood alcohol level the day after drinking. This is not intentional
You can argue that at your trial but it won't work in the USA. I can't say about other countries.

Criminal negligence is, as the name suggests, a crime (thus immoral): Criminal negligence - Wikipedia
The label "criminal negligence" is deceptive because, unlike ordinary negligence, it involves an intentional act -- that of knowing that the act is harming others yet continuing to do it.

There is no such thing as unbiased, only less biased. So many things are subjective that culture and experience often necessarily play a role. Murder v manslaughter, self-defence v excessive use of force, etc.
Conscience is moral intuition, its judgments are not subjective. If the jury is screened for obvious biases, and they have the facts of the case straight, they will make the right decision.

I recognize that you won't agree and we've already covered your hypothesis that, through some process which you can't describe, the rational mind influences intuition.

Very odd to accuse someone of lying about a very basic point that you could have googled to check yourself.
It's very odd that you quote me accusing you of making a dumb statement and you interpret that as accusing you of lying. I don't know what to make of that.

It's in this discussion: Biology and culture. He explains that the 'software' is what is responsible for our great acheievements and 'progress', as our biology evolves far too slowly to do this. As such he basically argues that any potential 'solutions' are really cultural solutions, which is very different from your perspective.
As your evidence, you provide a two-hour podcast for me to listen to? o_O

Here are your problems: First, we humans can't see, hear, smell or taste the difference between moral right and wrong unless we FEEL the moral intuition of conscience. So, our reasoning minds would know absolutely nothing about morality if not for the moral intuition that we call "conscience." But you are claiming that what we learn from culture somehow influences our moral intuition but you can't explain how that happens.

Another problem you have is that you have cause-and-effect switched. Human minds influence and create culture. In other words, culture isn't some independent thing that influences human minds. Our flawed reasoning minds create culture including our cultural biases.
 
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You can argue that at your trial but it won't work in the USA.

Which is exactly the point... That it was unintentional doesn't negate the crime.

The label "criminal negligence" is deceptive because, unlike ordinary negligence, it involves an intentional act -- that of knowing that the act is harming others yet continuing to do it.

No it doesn't.

"The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Recklessness is usually described as a "malfeasance" where the defendant knowingly exposes another to the risk of injury. The fault lies in being willing to run the risk. But criminal negligence is a "misfeasance" or "nonfeasance" (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest."

So can we agree that negligence can be both criminal and immoral without being intentional? Or should we simply disregard the source (again)...


It's very odd that you quote me accusing you of making a dumb statement and you interpret that as accusing you of lying. I don't know what to make of that.

Verbatim:

The analogy was from evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein.

"Since it's a dumb statement, I doubt that. But if I'm wrong you can provide a link to that precise analogy."

Most people would interpret that as "I think you are lying about getting it from BW ", but I'll accept your word that you meant something else.

s your evidence, you provide a two-hour podcast for me to listen to? o_O

You asked where I got it from, so I gave you the link. Can't link to peer-reviewed academic journals, can't directly quote people, can't link to podcasts, no pleasing some people :D

If you have spent 20 years studying this though, spending a couple of hours that could remedy a basic misunderstanding of the human mind re: culture seems like an exemplary use of your time ;)

I recognize that you won't agree and we've already covered your hypothesis that, through some process which you can't describe, the rational mind influences intuition. of our cognition

I said the mind works in 2 ways, Kahneman and Tversky, called them system 1 and system 2. Others systematic v heuristic, etc. Haidt concurred. There is a massive amount of experimental evidence to demonstrate this is accurate. Start with Kahneman's Thinking fast and slow if you would like a basic primer.

I don't like the term 'rational' as humans are fundamentally irrational creatures, but some of our thought is based on conscious reasoning and this can, in certain situations, override intuition.

Also, culture influences intuition, and human thought can influence culture. Being brought up in 8th C Arabia or 21st C Berkley would make a big difference to intuitive reactions (as you know, Haidt demonstrates cultural differences in reaction in his article).

(Note: culture could be purely random or stochastic rather than reason driven, so it isn't a reason v intuition dichotomy)

Human minds influence and create culture. Culture doesn't influence human minds.

The evidence is that it is a dynamic process.

Why do you think Weinstein's analogy is "dumb" though? Why can't culture influence human minds? You argued for cultural bias previously, why isn't that an example of culture influencing human minds? Why is Weinstein wrong that culture is the driver of what you would deem progress?

Do you believe culture has zero impact on any aspect of our minds, or are you saying only morality is uninfluenced by culture?
 
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