If Jesus was a sacrifice...

[Hufflechuff]

Since The Fall in the Garden of Eden all men were born with sin, and women would suffer the pains of childbirth as penance.

Jesus died to lift that curse; for mankind to be born free of sin.

However as women still suffer the pain of childbirth it shows that Yahweh's curse was not broken, and the sacrifice failed.

 

[Kolibri]

Since The Fall in the Garden of Eden all men were born with sin, and women would suffer the pains of childbirth as penance.
Jesus died to lift that curse; for mankind to be born free of sin.
However as women still suffer the pain of childbirth it shows that Yahweh's curse was not broken, and the sacrifice failed.

Thank-you for reminding me of this part....

In the Bible often has "to permit" written as "to cause." So unless it specifically calls it a curse it would a sad consequence instead.
Jehovah warned her that the sad consequence of sin is that giving birth will now be more painful.
Also that the husband would often be distant emotionally and often treat her badly.
This was not a curse but a sad consequence of her and also her husband being imperfect.

The serpent(Satan himself) was cursed and the land was cursed, but not the woman.
The land's curse was lifted with the Noachian Flood. (Ge 3:14,17-19; 8:21,22)

 

[Eileen]

Since The Fall in the Garden of Eden all men were born with sin, and women would suffer the pains of childbirth as penance.

Jesus died to lift that curse; for mankind to be born free of sin.

However as women still suffer the pain of childbirth it shows that Yahweh's curse was not broken, and the sacrifice failed.

Scripture does not support the idea that 'all humans were born with sin. It clearly says that we are sinless until we sin. Ezekiel 18:20. There are many more verses that prove this and Yeshua said concerning young children "such is the Kingdom of God."
The doctrine of 'fallen humanity is quite erroneous. We have always had choice.

 

[Yes]

The Hebrew laws forbids a charge of murder without proof. Not a single Greek, Roman or Hebrew archives mentions this, other than the Gospels, which is 3rd Century. Why do Christians accept this?

Explain more what you are trying to say.

 

[Kolibri]

young children "such is the Kingdom of God."

One thing I like about young children is that they are still teachable. they don't have a lot of preconceptions that prevent them from learning yet.

 

[Hufflechuff]

In the Bible often has "to permit" written as "to cause." So unless it specifically calls it a curse it would a sad consequence instead.
...
This was not a curse but a sad consequence of her and also her husband being imperfect.

Being the omnipotent and omniscient creator it was Yahweh that determined what the consequence would be. So a distinction between 'cause' and 'permit' does not apply here. The cost of the sin was painful childbirth. Jesus did nothing to remove this tangible aspect.

 

[Hufflechuff]

Scripture does not support the idea that 'all humans were born with sin. It clearly says that we are sinless until we sin. Ezekiel 18:20. There are many more verses that prove this and Yeshua said concerning young children "such is the Kingdom of God."
The doctrine of 'fallen humanity is quite erroneous. We have always had choice.

If man is free of sin then Jesus didn't need to die. Isn't that the point?

 

[Eileen]

If man is free of sin then Jesus didn't need to die. Isn't that the point?

I did not say man is free of sin I said we all have the choice to sin and once we have sinned we qualify as sinners. I am responsible for my own sin.

I do not believe Yeshua died as a sin sacrifice as Torah forbids human sacrifice as well as other requirements needed in sin offerings that did not happen to him. Yeshua died because some men, both Jew and Gentile, wanted him dead and because he had to die in order to be resurrected.

But in the office of High Priest Yeshua will make a l sin offering for all those who have truly made teshuva returning to HaShem's instructions.

Yeshua died so that he could be resurrected unto eternal life so that he could be our High Priest and earthly King eternally.

 

[Kolibri]

What happens to a car when the alignment is off? Is there not more wear and tear? What about a bicycle chain that is not aligned with the gears? Is there not added tension? Sin knocked off our alignment. We began to wear out. We are no longer set to the engineering specs. The curse is that we are patterned after an imbalanced replica of the blueprint. The added wear and tear is a sad consequence.

We were told in Revelation that the physical healing of the nations would be after Armageddon. Meanwhile we are already able to be in a saved condition. Guaranteed our reward if we remain faithful, despite trials that Satan and this world under his control throws at us.

The price has been paid. We benefit in having our hope made more sure. The physical application of the ransom is yet future.

 

[McBell]

I see that you will not humble yourself and admit that you were shown the truth.

You are in a very bad position until you can humble yourself.

your hypocrisy is showing.

 

[Eileen]

What happens to a car when the alignment is off? Is there not more wear and tear? What about a bicycle chain that is not aligned with the gears? Is there not added tension? Sin knocked off our alignment. We began to wear out. We are no longer set to the engineering specs. The curse is that we are patterned after an imbalanced replica of the blueprint. The added wear and tear is a sad consequence.

We were told in Revelation that the physical healing of the nations would be after Armageddon. Meanwhile we are already able to be in a saved condition. Guaranteed our reward if we remain faithful, despite trials that Satan and this world under his control throws at us.

The price has been paid. We benefit in having our hope made more sure. The physical application of the ransom is yet future.

Pretty good analogy but what price has been paid?

 

[Hufflechuff]

Yeshua died so that he could be resurrected unto eternal life so that he could be our High Priest and earthly King eternally.

He died for our sins - that is the common Christian belief that I'm asking about.

 

[Desert Snake]

Since The Fall in the Garden of Eden all men were born with sin, and women would suffer the pains of childbirth as penance.

Jesus died to lift that curse; for mankind to be born free of sin.

However as women still suffer the pain of childbirth it shows that Yahweh's curse was not broken, and the sacrifice failed.

Haha you are partly correct. Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins, /Those who accept Him/, but it doesn't negate the consequences of the fall in the Garden. Jesus did not 'make us perfect'. Not even close.

 

[Desert Snake]

He died for our sins - that is the common Christian belief that I'm asking about.

Yes, you are most likely getting faulty information. Jesus sacrificed Himself for the sins of those that accept Him, it does nothing otherwise, it is not an "atonement", slate -cleaning' of Eve and Adams /that's ours/, punishment.

 

[Kolibri]

Pretty good analogy but what price has been paid?

Those of us that inherited sin, did not deserve death as a result of our own doing.
We were conceived condemned to eventually wear out and die.
A life for a life. A perfect human life needed to be lost to pay the price required to save us from the cycle.
One perfect human life with the unused potential of perfect descendants lost to cover the exact cost of the deliberate sin of Adam's that we all inherited.
Jesus thus became our "Eternal Father" by legally replacing Adam as our first human forefather.

 

[Hufflechuff]

Haha you are partly correct. Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins, /Those who accept Him/, but it doesn't negate the consequences of the fall in the Garden. Jesus did not 'make us perfect'. Not even close.

Thank you. So, the sin was forgiven but the punishment not lifted?

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you. So, the sin was forgiven but the punishment not lifted?

That's my understanding.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Those of us that inherited sin, did not deserve death as a result of our own doing.
We were conceived condemned to eventually wear out and die.
A life for a life. A perfect human life needed to be lost to pay the price required to save us from the cycle.
One perfect human life with the unused potential of perfect descendants lost to cover the exact cost of the deliberate sin of Adam's that we all inherited.
Jesus thus became our "Eternal Father" by legally replacing Adam as our first human forefather.

You did not inherit sin rather the Penalty of sin.

 

[Eileen]

Those of us that inherited sin, did not deserve death as a result of our own doing.
We were conceived condemned to eventually wear out and die.
A life for a life. A perfect human life needed to be lost to pay the price required to save us from the cycle.
One perfect human life with the unused potential of perfect descendants lost to cover the exact cost of the deliberate sin of Adam's that we all inherited.
Jesus thus became our "Eternal Father" by legally replacing Adam as our first human forefather.

Can you cite Scripture that we were conceived condemned?

 

[Kolibri]

if we did not inherent the sin then any one of us should have been able to remain sinless.