I see no value in atheism

[JoStories]

My point is that "a lack of belief in God" in no way requires one to reject the idea of God existing. It could merely mean that the person has not been convinced as of yet and are still "on the fence" (i.e. "agnostic"). I think that, according to the definition of the term "atheism", all agnostics are atheists, as they lack a belief in God. There is no requirement for one to believe that God does not exist to be an atheist. According to the definition, anyone who does not believe in a deity is an atheist.

1. I have no clue how all those damned emoticons got up there. Slap to forhead...sorry.
2. I will address this tomorrow dear one. G'nite

 

[leibowde84]

G

1. I have no clue how all those damned emoticons got up there. Slap to forhead...sorry.
2. I will address this tomorrow dear one. G'nite

Goodnight my love ...

 

[Quagmire]

But atheism does not infer such a rejection - it is simply the position of not being a theist. Babies are atheist in that they are not theist and therefore atheist.

Atheism is a word, and words usually have multiple meanings and connotations that tend to change over time.

Webster's definition of Atheism:
1. archaic : ungodliness, wickedness

2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

b : the doctrine that there is no deity

All of those imply a positive rather than passive position.

Wiki says this:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10][11]

There's 5 definitions from reputable sources, and only one implies neutrality rather than active rejection.

I suppose that the one could be considered as legitimate a definition as any of the others, but it's still only one definition.

For practical purposes, I would guess that if we made a poll thread asking RF's atheist members: "Do you merely lack a belief in God, or do you hold a definite belief that there is no God", that second option would trump the first by a wide margin.

 

[Quagmire]

Atheism is a word, and words usually have multiple meanings and connotations that tend to change over time.



All of those imply a positive rather than passive position.

Wiki says this:

There's 5 definitions from reputable sources, and only one implies neutrality rather than active rejection.

I suppose that the one could be considered as legitimate a definition as any of the others, but it's still only one definition.

For practical purposes, I would guess that if we made a poll thread asking RF's atheist members: "Do you merely lack a belief in God, or do you hold a definite belief that there is no God", that second option would trump the first by a wide margin.

Two more from Dictionary.com:

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Both active positions, and that's all they had.

 

[Quagmire]

For practical purposes, I would guess that if we made a poll thread asking RF's atheist members: "Do you merely lack a belief in God, or do you hold a definite belief that there is no God", that second option would trump the first by a wide margin.

So let's see: A poll for our Atheist members. | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Bunyip]

Atheism is a word, and words usually have multiple meanings and connotations that tend to change over time.

Correct.

All of those imply a positive rather than passive position.

No they don't mate.

Wiki says this:

There's 5 definitions from reputable sources, and only one implies neutrality rather than active rejection.

I suppose that the one could be considered as legitimate a definition as any of the others, but it's still only one definition.

For practical purposes, I would guess that if we made a poll thread asking RF's atheist members: "Do you merely lack a belief in God, or do you hold a definite belief that there is no God", that second option would trump the first by a wide margin.

Again, you are completely wrong. The first category would be far more popular - as the polls on this forum have demonstrated.

 

[Bunyip]

Two more from Dictionary.com:

Both active positions, and that's all they had.

That does not define atheism as a positive claim - no idea why you would think it did,

 

[Bunyip]

Where did you get that I see it as positive. I didn't say that. I see it as what it is, rejection. A place of no belief. IMO, there is the rejection of any theistic POV or the absence of one. One could argue that babies fall into the latter but I don't see it that way. A position of atheism requires that one have some notion of what a god or God is. IMO of course

Why? Why would you need knowledge of something to lack belief in it? Sorry, but I can't see the sense there.

 

[Quagmire]

Correct. No they don't mate. Again, you are completely wrong.

That does not define atheism as a positive claim - no idea why you would think it did,

Then you're speaking a completely different language than I am. Which is something I've suspected for some time.

 

[Bunyip]

The you're speaking a completely different language than I am. Which is something I've suspected for some time.

Yes, I am speaking in English.

 

[JoStories]

My point is that "a lack of belief in God" in no way requires one to reject the idea of God existing. It could merely mean that the person has not been convinced as of yet and are still "on the fence" (i.e. "agnostic"). I think that, according to the definition of the term "atheism", all agnostics are atheists, as they lack a belief in God. There is no requirement for one to believe that God does not exist to be an atheist. According to the definition, anyone who does not believe in a deity is an atheist.

Good morning darling.
I understand however I am going to disagree with you that agnostics are atheists. IMO, agnostics are more on the fence, and this form of belief or,lack thereof, requires an understanding of God to be able to be labeled agnostic. Again imo, agnostics don't lack a belief in God but rather see no evidence that is credibl either way. Using your defintion of atheism I would,be forced to agree that anyone who had never heard of the concept would be, of necessity, atheist, including babies and young children, Yet I still feel that true atheism requires an understanding of what God is or is not. Just my,opinion and I know it's not the one many hold my love. I look forward to your remarks and hope you are having a delightful,day.

 

[JoStories]

Why? Why would you need knowledge of something to lack belief in it? Sorry, but I can't see the sense there.

I understand that. IMO, and please note that anacronym, to reject belief requires understanding, for example, if I believe that behavioral psychology is bunk, because it doesn't consider physiognomy, genetics, and so on, I have to understand fully what behavioral psychology is. Or a more understandable example, if I believe that Freud was full of crap, as most do today, I have to have a full understanding of what he proposed to believe he was full of sh*te. And I do believe he as full of sh*te.

 

[ArtieE]

So, by your definition, an atheist is someone "without belief in gods". An agnostic is one that does not know whether God exists.

An agnostic is one that does not know whether gods exist.

Does an agnostic lack belief in God? Yes.

No. An agnostic says that he doesn't know if gods exist or not. He says nothing about what he believes. You are talking about "agnostic atheists" not just agnostics.

agnostics are all atheists, as they "lack a belief in a deity".

No they don't. You are talking about "agnostic atheists". Agnostics just don't know whether gods exist or not.

Obviously, if one does not have an opinion on the subject (doesn't know whether God exists), then they "lack a belief in God".

You are terminally confused. Let me clarify:

Theist: believes in god(s)
Atheist: doesn't believe in god(s)
Gnostic: knows that god(s) exist
Agnostic: doesn't know if god(s) exist

Gnostic theist: Both knows and believes that god(s) exist
Agnostic theist: Doesn't know but believes that god(s) exist
Gnostic atheist: knows gods don't exist and believes god(s) don't exist
Agnostic atheist: Says he doesn't know if god(s) exist and doesn't believe they do

 

[ArtieE]

Using your defintion of atheism I would,be forced to agree that anyone who had never heard of the concept would be, of necessity, atheist, including babies and young children,

Those are called "weak atheists".

Yet I still feel that true atheism requires an understanding of what God is or is not.

That would be "strong atheists". Atheism for Beginners

 

[leibowde84]

An agnostic is one that does not know whether gods exist.No. An agnostic says that he doesn't know if gods exist or not. He says nothing about what he believes. You are talking about "agnostic atheists" not just agnostics.No they don't. You are talking about "agnostic atheists". Agnostics just don't know whether gods exist or not.You are terminally confused. Let me clarify:

Theist: believes in god(s)
Atheist: doesn't believe in god(s)
Gnostic: knows that god(s) exist
Agnostic: doesn't know if god(s) exist

Gnostic theist: Both knows and believes that god(s) exist
Agnostic theist: Doesn't know but believes that god(s) exist
Gnostic atheist: knows gods don't exist and believes god(s) don't exist
Agnostic atheist: Says he doesn't know if god(s) exist and doesn't believe they do

So, you are saying that Agnostics do have a belief in God? No one knows whether God exists, so one either believes that God exists (theist) or they don't (atheist). There are many atheists who lack a belief in God, but aren't strong atheists who actively believe that God does not exist. Thus, Agnostics should be considered Atheist as well, as they too do not believe in God. If they did, they would be theists. Again no one knows if God exists. That's my point. Not confused at all. I understand your argument. I just think it's flawed.

 

[leibowde84]

An agnostic is one that does not know whether gods exist.No. An agnostic says that he doesn't know if gods exist or not. He says nothing about what he believes. You are talking about "agnostic atheists" not just agnostics.No they don't. You are talking about "agnostic atheists". Agnostics just don't know whether gods exist or not.You are terminally confused. Let me clarify:

Theist: believes in god(s)
Atheist: doesn't believe in god(s)
Gnostic: knows that god(s) exist
Agnostic: doesn't know if god(s) exist

Gnostic theist: Both knows and believes that god(s) exist
Agnostic theist: Doesn't know but believes that god(s) exist
Gnostic atheist: knows gods don't exist and believes god(s) don't exist
Agnostic atheist: Says he doesn't know if god(s) exist and doesn't believe they do

I feel like you are completely off base with this concept of "knowing" that God exists. That word is not in any definition for atheist, agnostic, or theist. All are based on a standard of belief.

Weak atheists are atheists, as the only requirement is a lack of belief. Further, if an agnositc believes in God, they are a theist by definition (use Websters if you need to ... it's pretty clear). Agnostic Theist is an oxymoron. An Agnositc lacks belief in God in the same way that a weak atheist does. Thus, both can be considered atheist or agnostic.

 

[leibowde84]

Those are called "weak atheists".That would be "strong atheists". Atheism for Beginners

Weak atheists and strong atheists are all atheists. Just like a scientific theory is a more defined example of a theory, a weak atheist is a more defined example of an atheist. They still are included under the umbrella term "atheist" though.

I'm still confused as to the notion of "knowing" that God exists. That is a logical fallacy according to the definition of the term "know".

 

[ArtieE]

So, you are saying that Agnostics do have a belief in God?

We don't know what they believe if they just say they are agnostics. When they say they are "agnostics" they tell us nothing about whether they believe gods exist or not only that they don't know. If they tell us that they are "agnostic atheists" then they tell us that they don't believe in gods. If they tell us they are "agnostic theists" then they tell us they believe in gods.

No one knows whether God exists,

Try telling that to a theist who believes he talks to the Christian God every day.

so one either believes that God exists (theist) or they don't (atheist).

Correct.

There are many atheists who lack a belief in God,

Weak atheists

but aren't strong atheists who actively believe that God does not exist. Thus, Agnostics should be considered Atheist as well, as they too do not believe in God.

How many times do I have to say that agnostics say nothing about their beliefs they only say they don't know.

If they did, they would be theists. Again no one knows if God exists.

And again, try telling that to a theist who believes he talks to Him every day.

 

[McBell]

.And again, try telling that to a theist who believes he talks to Him every day.

How does "belief" equal "knowing"?

 

[ArtieE]

I feel like you are completely off base with this concept of "knowing" that God exists. That word is not in any definition for atheist, agnostic, or theist.

Here is a nice simple guide for you explaining it all.

Atheism vs Theism vs Agnosticism vs Gnosticism. A simple guide to know what the hell you are. - Stanley Colors