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I Felt A Heavy Weight On Me While Asleep.

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Equally. You could also jump to the conclusion that it's sleep paralysis, or something along thes lines, when you don't know. Agreed?
There was a time in my life that I experienced this phenomenon for several months in which I had no idea what was going on. I've been all over the map on this, in trying to figure it out. My mind went to all kinds of places, at one point I thought someone was breaking into my house. At another point I thought maybe I was having a psychotic break or something.

Then I stumbled upon a sleep study in my desperate internet searches to figure out what was wrong with me. It was a sleep study being carried out on sleep paralysis. When I read through the symptoms and explanations, every single one of mine was listed. So, I signed up for the study. Went in for testing and found out that it's called sleep paralysis.
Do you know that it cannot be something other than sleep paralysis?
I'll ask you the same question I asked @anna. Why do you dismiss demon activity?
It could also be sleep apnea. I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say.

I "dismiss" demon activity because the evidence doesn't indicate to me that demons are involved.
All the evidence I have indicates that it's organic in nature.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
There was a time in my life that I experienced this phenomenon for several months in which I had no idea what was going on. I've been all over the map on this, in trying to figure it out. My mind went to all kinds of places, at one point I thought someone was breaking into my house. At another point I thought maybe I was having a psychotic break or something. I read all

Then I stumbled upon a sleep study in my desperate internet searches to figure out what was wrong with me. It was a sleep study being carried out on sleep paralysis. When I read through the symptoms and explanations, every single one of mine was listed. So, I signed up for the study. Went in for testing and found out that it's called sleep paralysis.
You got an answer, and felt relieved you were not going out of your mind. I'm glad for you. :)

It could also be sleep apnea. I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say.

I "dismiss" demon activity because the evidence doesn't indicate to me that demons are involved.
All the evidence I have indicates that it's organic in nature.
How would you know what is demonic activity? Are you spiritistic? Do you know what evidence would be evidence for demonic activity? Or, do you simply dismiss anything that you don't see as "organic in nature"?
How is conscious experience "organic in nature" though?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You got an answer, and felt relieved you were not going out of your mind. I'm glad for you. :)
Thank you. It was definitely a relief to get to the bottom of it. :)
How would you know what is demonic activity? Are you spiritistic? Do you know what evidence would be evidence for demonic activity? Or, do you simply dismiss anything that you don't see as "organic in nature"?
I don't know exactly. I've never even really been given a good definition of what a demon or spirit even is in the first place, or how to go about detecting one.

I haven't "dismissed" anything here. I explored all possibilities, as I said. I've just gone with the explanation that best fits the evidence. In this case, the best explanation that fits the evidence is sleep paralysis.


How is conscious experience "organic in nature" though?
Because it's the product of brain activity. Demonstrably so.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thank you. It was definitely a relief to get to the bottom of it. :)

I don't know exactly. I've never even really been given a good definition of what a demon or spirit even is in the first place, or how to go about detecting one.
I understand that.
If you are seeking to detect demons, you cannot begin with the supposition that you will see something physical, and you can grab it and put it in a lab. Or use an instrument to read it.
Moreover, you cannot have the view that humans are the most intelligent life-forms.
The Bible does not describe demons as unintelligent, but rather, a form of life, higher than we are.

I haven't "dismissed" anything here.
Good to hear that. Hopefully I will see that, also. ;)

I explored all possibilities, as I said.
All possibilities? Are you sure?
How can a person explore all possibilities, when they don't know all possibilities?
Didn't you just say you haven't dismissed anything?

I've just gone with the explanation that best fits the evidence. In this case, the best explanation that fits the evidence is sleep paralysis.
The explanation that best fits the evidence?
Then you must know of the other explanation and how it works... but you just said you don't know about it.
Sorry, I'm a little confused. Could you tell me about the other explanation... What do you know about it?

Because it's the product of brain activity. Demonstrably so.
That's not known.
If you google it, you will find no consensus. It's still being debated, and investigated.
Isn't that how science works?

Si, why do you seem to take the stance that closes the mind to anything outside of what 'science' says?
I remember talking with an atheist some time back... I don't recall whom that was, but they were dogmatically stating that science has shown "demonstrably so" that the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Now, only a couple years later, we are seeing this splashed all over the internet - Earth’s core is younger than previously believed : could be between 1 and 1.3 billion years old, or as young as 5xx million.

I can guess what that person would say to me. "Thats how science works." Yet they don't behave as if they believe that.
I saw another like this. the universe is older than previously believed : twice as old.

I just mentioned that, as thoughts resurfaced, when I read your last phrase - Demonstrably so.
They seemed so final. Yet, so not true.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I understand that.
If you are seeking to detect demons, you cannot begin with the supposition that you will see something physical, and you can grab it and put it in a lab. Or use an instrument to read it.
So you're saying demons are undetectable? How can you know a demon exists and is there, if they're undetectable to the senses?
Moreover, you cannot have the view that humans are the most intelligent life-forms.
Okay.
The Bible does not describe demons as unintelligent, but rather, a form of life, higher than we are.
Okay. What sort of "form of life?"
Good to hear that. Hopefully I will see that, also. ;)
I'm always open to whatever the evidence indicates.
All possibilities? Are you sure?
How can a person explore all possibilities, when they don't know all possibilities?
Didn't you just say you haven't dismissed anything?
I explored every possibility available to me. I've poured through websites and blogs of all shapes and sizes in my search for answers. I don't dismiss possibilities that haven't occurred to me, of course. (That wouldn't make much sense.)

The explanation that best fits the evidence?
Yes.
Then you must know of the other explanation and how it works... but you just said you don't know about it.
Sorry, I'm a little confused. Could you tell me about the other explanation... What do you know about it?
What "other explanation?"
That's not known.
If you google it, you will find no consensus. It's still being debated, and investigated.
Isn't that how science works?

It is known what is going on in the brain and body during sleep paralysis.
Si, why do you seem to take the stance that closes the mind to anything outside of what 'science' says?
I've studied the brain for most of my life. Empirical evidence is the best evidence we have for pretty much anything.
I remember talking with an atheist some time back... I don't recall whom that was, but they were dogmatically stating that science has shown "demonstrably so" that the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Now, only a couple years later, we are seeing this splashed all over the internet - Earth’s core is younger than previously believed : could be between 1 and 1.3 billion years old, or as young as 5xx million.

I can guess what that person would say to me. "Thats how science works." Yet they don't behave as if they believe that.
I saw another like this. the universe is older than previously believed : twice as old.
That is how science works. It follows the evidence. As I've done with my sleep paralysis. If a demon shows up one day, I"ll let ya know. ;)
I just mentioned that, as thoughts resurfaced, when I read your last phrase - Demonstrably so.
They seemed so final. Yet, so not true.
If you can demonstrate to me that demons are doing it, I'll consider your evidence.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So you're saying demons are undetectable? How can you know a demon exists and is there, if they're undetectable to the senses?
That's a good question.
You said...
Quote
There was a time in my life that I experienced this phenomenon for several months in which I had no idea what was going on. I've been all over the map on this, in trying to figure it out. My mind went to all kinds of places, at one point I thought someone was breaking into my house. At another point I thought maybe I was having a psychotic break or something.

Then I stumbled upon a sleep study in my desperate internet searches to figure out what was wrong with me. It was a sleep study being carried out on sleep paralysis. When I read through the symptoms and explanations, every single one of mine was listed.
So, I signed up for the study. Went in for testing and found out that it's called sleep paralysis.
Unquote

Eventually, you accepted the explanation of the experts who study the brain, etc.

Suppose you believed that there were experts in a field of study, that goes beyond 'the natural'.
What is more, you trust these "experts". Why? They have proven themselves reliable.
Moreover, unlike the human experts who often revise what they tell you, is the truth, what the "experts" in the field of the supernatural tell you is true, never has to be revised and changed. It always proves true - trustworthy.

What if you are informed that because these entities (demons) are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments), but can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter), would you dismiss the possibility of their interference during sleep, and wakefulness, or both... especially having being informed of their interests in humans, and their high intelligence?
Think of a super neuroscientist, who doesn't have to learn and understand how your brain work, but knows exactly how it works.

I understand you are highly skeptical and lacking faith, so I can appreciate your clinging tightly to physical explanation for everything.
The evidence that convinces the Christian, might be evidence you dismiss quickly.
I do the same, when I hear explanation that I expect will change sooner, or later, or is simply based on ideas or assumptions.

(1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) 14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.

Okay. What sort of "form of life?"
They are referred to as spirit.
The understanding we get from scripture, is that it surpassed any form of energy and matter known to man.
I'm not sure if man will discover energy or matter different to what they currently know, but with the discovery of the hypothetical 'Dark Matter'... which is considered different, and the hypothetical 'Dark Energy', we know very little about what is out there, and beyond.

I'm always open to whatever the evidence indicates.
Good to hear. We like to see, more than we like to hear. ;)

I explored every possibility available to me. I've poured through websites and blogs of all shapes and sizes in my search for answers. I don't dismiss possibilities that haven't occurred to me, of course. (That wouldn't make much sense.)
Perhaps you were not searching with anything specific in mind, and I can understand that. As you said, when you don't know...
I just typed in "sleep paralysis or demonic activity", and there among the topmost results, found this... Sleep Demon
In part, it says...
While modern scientists consider sleep demons to be hallucinations, this is not the first or only interpretation of this phenomenon. Societies throughout history have developed their own explanations for these experiences, each stemming from a unique cultural context.

What "other explanation?"
The ones you dismiss. ;)

It is known what is going on in the brain and body during sleep paralysis.

I've studied the brain for most of my life. Empirical evidence is the best evidence we have for pretty much anything.
There is no consensus that consciousness is the product of brain activity.
Don't take my word for it.

What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models
The nature of consciousness is considered one of science’s most perplexing and persistent mysteries. We all know the subjective experience of consciousness, but where does it arise? What is its purpose? What are its full capacities? The assumption within today’s neuroscience is that all aspects of consciousness arise solely from interactions among neurons in the brain. However, the origin and mechanisms of qualia (i.e., subjective or phenomenological experience) are not understood. David Chalmers coined the term “the hard problem” to describe the difficulties in elucidating the origins of subjectivity from the point of view of reductive materialism. We propose that the hard problem arises because one or more assumptions within a materialistic worldview are either wrong or incomplete. If consciousness entails more than the activity of neurons, then we can contemplate new ways of thinking about the hard problem. This review examines phenomena that apparently contradict the notion that consciousness is exclusively dependent on brain activity, including phenomena where consciousness appears to extend beyond the physical brain and body in both space and time.

Rapid advances in neuroscience have provided remarkable breakthroughs in understanding the brain on many fronts. Although promising, the role of these advancements in solving the problem of consciousness is still unclear.

Proving how imagination occurs is not easy
Researchers have long suggested that human imagination exists thanks to a widespread neural network in the brain.
However, clearly demonstrating that such a “mental workspace” exists has been extremely difficult with available techniques that only managed to examine brain activity in isolation.

What exactly consciousness is and why it does what it does is another question. For now we may only speculate that consciousness is imagination acting as a link between our observable universe and the underlying quantum field: imagination extracting reality out of possibilities.

What Is a Thought Made of?
...there are two possible definitions of a thought. Either it's a part of the material world - physical patterns of electricity generated by the neurons in our brains - or it's a part of something else, some kind of cosmic consciousness that floats around the Universe completely undetectable by the instruments of modern science.

What thoughts are remains mysterious from a neuroscientific point of view.
As quotidian as talk about thoughts may be, what thoughts are remains mysterious from a neuroscientific point of view. They are certainly caused by brain function, but we do not yet have a solid idea regarding what it is about brain function that gives rise to them. Is it the particular kinds of neurons involved? The way a population of neurons fire? Do conscious thoughts require the activation of specific networks of brain regions or of tracts (the information highways that allow for brain regions to communicate with each other)? Do thoughts require activation of perceptual areas of the brain (a controversial notion)? At this stage of scientific understanding, we just don't know.

That is how science works. It follows the evidence. As I've done with my sleep paralysis. If a demon shows up one day, I"ll let ya know. ;)
How can you let me know of something you don't even know yourself?
Come on Skeptic.

If you can demonstrate to me that demons are doing it, I'll consider your evidence.
If you can demonstrate that everyone who has the experience is experiencing sleep paralysis, or the other things you mentioned, I'll consider your evidence. ;)
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That's a good question.
You said...
Quote
There was a time in my life that I experienced this phenomenon for several months in which I had no idea what was going on. I've been all over the map on this, in trying to figure it out. My mind went to all kinds of places, at one point I thought someone was breaking into my house. At another point I thought maybe I was having a psychotic break or something.

Then I stumbled upon a sleep study in my desperate internet searches to figure out what was wrong with me. It was a sleep study being carried out on sleep paralysis. When I read through the symptoms and explanations, every single one of mine was listed.
So, I signed up for the study. Went in for testing and found out that it's called sleep paralysis.
Unquote

Eventually, you accepted the explanation of the experts who study the brain, etc.
Yep. The experts demonstrated to me what was going on inside my brain.
Suppose you believed that there were experts in a field of study, that goes beyond 'the natural'.
Why would I do that?
What is more, you trust these "experts". Why? They have proven themselves reliable.
Moreover, unlike the human experts who often revise what they tell you, is the truth, what the "experts" in the field of the supernatural tell you is true, never has to be revised and changed. It always proves true - trustworthy.
When said experts can demonstrate the existence of a supernatural realm, that's when I'll believe one exists. The problem is, nobody has ever demonstrated the existence of supernatural anything. Scientists can demonstrate that nature exists and provide measurable and observable descriptions of it and the things within it. No such thing exists for any supernatural anything. That's why I didn't go with that, as I see it as a non-explanation.


What if you are informed that because these entities (demons) are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments), but can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter), would you dismiss the possibility of their interference during sleep, and wakefulness, or both... especially having being informed of their interests in humans, and their high intelligence?
If demons are undetectable and invisible and not affected by matter but can effect matter (which already doesn't seem to make any sense), I'd love to know how you think you can determine they have "interests in humans" and some kind of "higher intelligence." How did you determine that?
Think of a super neuroscientist, who doesn't have to learn and understand how your brain work, but knows exactly how it works.

I understand you are highly skeptical and lacking faith, so I can appreciate your clinging tightly to physical explanation for everything.
The evidence that convinces the Christian, might be evidence you dismiss quickly.
I do the same, when I hear explanation that I expect will change sooner, or later, or is simply based on ideas or assumptions.

(1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) 14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.
Evidence convinces me of things. Not just assertions about invisible undetectable things that you've somehow managed to detect.

The problem with these supposed explanations is that they don't make sense, they don't account for all the facts, and they're not demonstrable.
I can view my brain in various different types of scans. I can view what is going on in my brain with various different types of scans. We know brains exist. We know neurotransmitters exist. I can put together an explanation that actually provides some explanatory power, as to what's going on in my brain during these experiences. I get nothing anything close to this with the claims you're making here.
They are referred to as spirit.
The understanding we get from scripture, is that it surpassed any form of energy and matter known to man.
I'm not sure if man will discover energy or matter different to what they currently know, but with the discovery of the hypothetical 'Dark Matter'... which is considered different, and the hypothetical 'Dark Energy', we know very little about what is out there, and beyond.
So spirits are invisible and undetectable entities that have "surpassed any form of energy and matter known to man."
I mean, cool story I guess, but is there any actual demonstration of this outside of Bible stories?
Good to hear. We like to see, more than we like to hear. ;)


Perhaps you were not searching with anything specific in mind, and I can understand that. As you said, when you don't know...
I just typed in "sleep paralysis or demonic activity", and there among the topmost results, found this... Sleep Demon
I did not type that in because I wasn't yet aware of what it is called. I don't remember exactly what I typed but it was something like "not being able to wake up from sleep" and "feeling a presence while sleeping" kind of thing.
While modern scientists consider sleep demons to be hallucinations, this is not the first or only interpretation of this phenomenon. Societies throughout history have developed their own explanations for these experiences, each stemming from a unique cultural context.


The ones you dismiss. ;)


There is no consensus that consciousness is the product of brain activity.
Don't take my word for it.


What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models
The nature of consciousness is considered one of science’s most perplexing and persistent mysteries. We all know the subjective experience of consciousness, but where does it arise? What is its purpose? What are its full capacities? The assumption within today’s neuroscience is that all aspects of consciousness arise solely from interactions among neurons in the brain. However, the origin and mechanisms of qualia (i.e., subjective or phenomenological experience) are not understood. David Chalmers coined the term “the hard problem” to describe the difficulties in elucidating the origins of subjectivity from the point of view of reductive materialism. We propose that the hard problem arises because one or more assumptions within a materialistic worldview are either wrong or incomplete. If consciousness entails more than the activity of neurons, then we can contemplate new ways of thinking about the hard problem. This review examines phenomena that apparently contradict the notion that consciousness is exclusively dependent on brain activity, including phenomena where consciousness appears to extend beyond the physical brain and body in both space and time.

Rapid advances in neuroscience have provided remarkable breakthroughs in understanding the brain on many fronts. Although promising, the role of these advancements in solving the problem of consciousness is still unclear.

Proving how imagination occurs is not easy
Researchers have long suggested that human imagination exists thanks to a widespread neural network in the brain.
However, clearly demonstrating that such a “mental workspace” exists has been extremely difficult with available techniques that only managed to examine brain activity in isolation.

What exactly consciousness is and why it does what it does is another question. For now we may only speculate that consciousness is imagination acting as a link between our observable universe and the underlying quantum field: imagination extracting reality out of possibilities.

What Is a Thought Made of?
...there are two possible definitions of a thought. Either it's a part of the material world - physical patterns of electricity generated by the neurons in our brains - or it's a part of something else, some kind of cosmic consciousness that floats around the Universe completely undetectable by the instruments of modern science.

What thoughts are remains mysterious from a neuroscientific point of view.
As quotidian as talk about thoughts may be, what thoughts are remains mysterious from a neuroscientific point of view. They are certainly caused by brain function, but we do not yet have a solid idea regarding what it is about brain function that gives rise to them. Is it the particular kinds of neurons involved? The way a population of neurons fire? Do conscious thoughts require the activation of specific networks of brain regions or of tracts (the information highways that allow for brain regions to communicate with each other)? Do thoughts require activation of perceptual areas of the brain (a controversial notion)? At this stage of scientific understanding, we just don't know.


How can you let me know of something you don't even know yourself?
Come on Skeptic.
I work in this field. All available evidence indicates that minds are products of brains. When the brain is damaged , the mind is also damaged. I've yet to see any evidence indicating that minds exist separately from brains. Have you seen any?
If you can demonstrate that everyone who has the experience is experiencing sleep paralysis, or the other things you mentioned, I'll consider your evidence. ;)
Okay cool. Then I see no reason to imagine that demons are causing my sleep paralysis, since no demonstration or mechanism has been provided that would convince me of that.

On the other hand, I participated in a controlled study with many other subjects, where actual evidence was compiled and presented to us, that show my brain is responsible for my experiences with sleep paralysis and provided with an explanation that added to my understanding of what was going on. They even provided me with suggestions to improve my quality of sleep and thus cut down on these experiences and when implemented, did exactly what they were supposed to do. I haven't had an experience of sleep paralysis in many years now.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Yep. The experts demonstrated to me what was going on inside my brain.
They did?
Show me please. Demonstrate what was demonstrated to you.

Why would I do that?

When said experts can demonstrate the existence of a supernatural realm, that's when I'll believe one exists. The problem is, nobody has ever demonstrated the existence of supernatural anything. Scientists can demonstrate that nature exists and provide measurable and observable descriptions of it and the things within it. No such thing exists for any supernatural anything. That's why I didn't go with that, as I see it as a non-explanation.
Demonstrate how? What exactly would be a demonstration of demonic activity for you?

If demons are undetectable and invisible and not affected by matter but can effect matter (which already doesn't seem to make any sense), I'd love to know how you think you can determine they have "interests in humans" and some kind of "higher intelligence." How did you determine that?
Dark matter makes no sense to you, then?
Dark matter undetectable and invisible and not affected by matter but can effect matter.
I'm interested in your response on this, before answering your question.

Evidence convinces me of things. Not just assertions about invisible undetectable things that you've somehow managed to detect.
Evidence is a body of facts.
There is a body of facts for the presence of demons.
Yet, not only you, but many people are not convinced. Many others are convinced by the evidence.

The problem with these supposed explanations is that they don't make sense, they don't account for all the facts, and they're not demonstrable.
They don't make sense to you. You can't speak for anyone, but yourself.
The explanations you believe make no sense to a lot of persons.
Neither do those explanation account for all the facts.
For example...
No one knows exactly what causes sleep paralysis, but it is linked to sleep disorders and certain mental health conditions.

...there isn’t a single test that can definitively identify sleep paralysis and rule out other conditions such as narcolepsy or seizure disorders.
Causes of Sleep Paralysis
The exact cause of sleep paralysis is unknown, but it is believed to be linked to disruptions in the normal transition between wakefulness and REM sleep.

It's not clear why sleep paralysis can happen but it has been linked with:
  • insomnia
  • disrupted sleeping patterns – for example, because of shift work or jet lag
  • narcolepsy – a long-term condition that causes a person to suddenly fall asleep
  • post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
  • generalised anxiety disorder
  • panic disorder
  • a family history of sleep paralysis

I have none of these symptoms - none. So to claim that everyone with an experienced as described in the OP, must be experiencing sleep paralysis, is just a claim - a belief, and assumption.

I can view my brain in various different types of scans. I can view what is going on in my brain with various different types of scans. I can put together an explanation that actually provides some explanatory power, as to what's going on in my brain during these experiences. I get nothing anything close to this with the claims you're making here.
Well, from the links I posted, what you subjectively think those scans tell you about conscious activity "in your brain", is a subject of debate.

So spirits are invisible and undetectable entities that have "surpassed any form of energy and matter known to man."
I mean, cool story I guess, but is there any actual demonstration of this outside of Bible stories?
Yes.

I did not type that in because I wasn't yet aware of what it is called. I don't remember exactly what I typed but it was something like "not being able to wake up from sleep" and "feeling a presence while sleeping" kind of thing.

I work in this field. All available evidence indicates that minds are products of brains. When the brain is damaged , the mind is also damaged. I've yet to see any evidence indicating that minds exist separately from brains. Have you seen any?
You are saying the mind is consciousness. Can you demonstrate that?

Okay cool. Then I see no reason to imagine that demons are causing my sleep paralysis, since no demonstration or mechanism has been provided that would convince me of that.
You don't have anything that demonstrates what's causing my sleep paralysis. :shrug:

On the other hand, I participated in a controlled study with many other subjects, where actual evidence was compiled and presented to us, that show my brain is responsible for my experiences with sleep paralysis and provided with an explanation that added to my understanding of what was going on.
No one is saying that your brain is not involved. What... do you think demons are tinkling with jelly fish, in order to affect you?

They even provided me with suggestions to improve my quality of sleep and thus cut down on these experiences and when implemented, did exactly what they were supposed to do. I haven't had an experience of sleep paralysis in many years now.
"cut down on these experiences"?
Wow. Mine completely went - varnished... just by prayer, and cutting out specific movies, and music from my life.
I have a feeling, if you were a dedicating Christian, and did the same, you would have clear proof then. ;)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
They did?
Show me please. Demonstrate what was demonstrated to you.
I don't feel comfortable sharing my medical records on a public forum. Sorry.

There is some information that could help you out though:



Demonstrate how? What exactly would be a demonstration of demonic activity for you?
I don't know. I'm not the one claiming demons exist. I have no evidence for demons.
Dark matter makes no sense to you, then?
I do not understand dark matter. No. I don't think most people do.
Dark matter undetectable and invisible and not affected by matter but can effect matter.
I'm interested in your response on this, before answering your question.
I see you bring this up in almost every conversation and I do not see the relevance.

I know nothing about dark matter and don't care to comment on things I don't know anything about. That's not my thing.
Evidence is a body of facts.
There is a body of facts for the presence of demons.
And those would be .... ?
It's kinda weird you didn't just state this "body of facts."
Yet, not only you, but many people are not convinced. Many others are convinced by the evidence.
I'm not convinced. What evidence, exactly?
They don't make sense to you. You can't speak for anyone, but yourself.
I'm not trying to speak for anyone other than myself, obviously. Nice attempt at a diversion though, I guess.
The explanations you believe make no sense to a lot of persons.
Too bad for them.
Neither do those explanation account for all the facts.
For example...
No one knows exactly what causes sleep paralysis, but it is linked to sleep disorders and certain mental health conditions.

...there isn’t a single test that can definitively identify sleep paralysis and rule out other conditions such as narcolepsy or seizure disorders.
Causes of Sleep Paralysis
The exact cause of sleep paralysis is unknown, but it is believed to be linked to disruptions in the normal transition between wakefulness and REM sleep.

It's not clear why sleep paralysis can happen but it has been linked with:
  • insomnia
  • disrupted sleeping patterns – for example, because of shift work or jet lag
  • narcolepsy – a long-term condition that causes a person to suddenly fall asleep
  • post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
  • generalised anxiety disorder
  • panic disorder
  • a family history of sleep paralysis
You can keep quoting the same thing 'til you're blue in the face. Sounds like you have some deeper investigating to do.
I have none of these symptoms - none. So to claim that everyone with an experienced as described in the OP, must be experiencing sleep paralysis, is just a claim - a belief, and assumption.
Those aren't symptoms. Rather, it's a list of potential causes. That's why you don't have "these symptoms." They aren't symptoms.
Well, from the links I posted, what you subjectively think those scans tell you about conscious activity "in your brain", is a subject of debate.
Nah. It's not subjective.
And that would be ..... ?
Why can't you just produce the evidence instead of constantly alluding to it but never indicating what it is?
You are saying the mind is consciousness. Can you demonstrate that?
I said consciousness is a product of a brain.

Also, you didn't answer my question.

All available evidence indicates that minds are products of brains. When the brain is damaged , the mind is also damaged. I've yet to see any evidence indicating that minds exist separately from brains. Have you seen any?
You don't have anything that demonstrates what's causing my sleep paralysis. :shrug:
I wasn't trying to. That's up to you and your doctor.
No one is saying that your brain is not involved. What... do you think demons are tinkling with jelly fish, in order to affect you?
I have no idea what you think demons do our what evidence you have since you've failed to bring it up so far.
"cut down on these experiences"?
Wow. Mine completely went - varnished... just by prayer, and cutting out specific movies, and music from my life.
So you made some changes, and you "cut down" on those experience. Great!


I have a feeling, if you were a dedicating Christian, and did the same, you would have clear proof then. ;)
Nah. Even as a Christian, I didn't believe in demons.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I don't feel comfortable sharing my medical records on a public forum. Sorry.

There is some information that could help you out though:

Like I said before, you have a good physical explanation.
My garden is wet. How can you tell if it is wet, due to rain? Other things are also wet, right.
What evidence do you have that I didn't wet those things? None.

I don't know. I'm not the one claiming demons exist. I have no evidence for demons.

I do not understand dark matter. No. I don't think most people do.

I see you bring this up in almost every conversation and I do not see the relevance.

I know nothing about dark matter and don't care to comment on things I don't know anything about. That's not my thing.

And those would be .... ?
It's kinda weird you didn't just state this "body of facts."

I'm not convinced. What evidence, exactly?
I think you pretty much made your position clear.
If you aren't interested in knowing about Dark Matter, you aren't interested in knowing about demons... or anything else you don't care to know.

I'm not trying to speak for anyone other than myself, obviously. Nice attempt at a diversion though, I guess.

Too bad for them.
They say, too bad for you.

You can keep quoting the same thing 'til you're blue in the face. Sounds like you have some deeper investigating to do.
Seems to me, you are the one needing to investigate. I am not the one saying I don't know about this or that, and frankly don't care, as "it's not my thing".

Those aren't symptoms. Rather, it's a list of potential causes. That's why you don't have "these symptoms." They aren't symptoms.

Nah. It's not subjective.

And that would be ..... ?
Why can't you just produce the evidence instead of constantly alluding to it but never indicating what it is?

I said consciousness is a product of a brain.
I know what you said. It's not.
You do understand what it mean to be a product of, right?

Also, you didn't answer my question.

All available evidence indicates that minds are products of brains. When the brain is damaged , the mind is also damaged. I've yet to see any evidence indicating that minds exist separately from brains. Have you seen any?
You are saying the mind is consciousness?
I was talking about consciousness. Not the mind.

I wasn't trying to. That's up to you and your doctor.

I have no idea what you think demons do our what evidence you have since you've failed to bring it up so far.

So you made some changes, and you "cut down" on those experience. Great!
Not "cut down", That's your experience.
Mine varnished. Completely. Gone. Period.

Nah. Even as a Christian, I didn't believe in demons.
There aren't any Christians that do not believe in demons.
Even James - a true Christian, said...
(James 2:19) . . .the demons believe and shudder. . .

Entities believe. So those claiming to be Christian, and not believing in demons, are fooling themselves, unless they don't believe the Bible. Which, in either case, they are fooling themselves.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11) That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie.
 
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anna.

but mostly it's the same
Equally. You could also jump to the conclusion that it's sleep paralysis, or something along thes lines, when you don't know. Agreed?
Do you know that it cannot be something other than sleep paralysis?
I'll ask you the same question I asked @anna. Why do you dismiss demon activity?

Because the biological possibilities are the likely culprit. I know people who jump to demonic activity to explain every mal event and it often seems like an attention-getting ploy as everyone listening clutches their heart in dismay. That may not be a fair assessment of everyone's experience, for sure.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
How It Began

I am a male, 21 years of age, from Nigeria. And a few days before I turned 21 a couple of days ago, I felt something heavy on me while I was asleep. It felt like I was being pressed down, I lost my voice and my ability to move. I wanted to say "Jesus" but there was no voice even for that. After like 10 to 15 seconds, it went away and I woke up. I shrugged it off as sleep paralysis.

Latest Occurence

Tonight (I am typing this at 3:01 AM, I got up by 2:34 AM or thereabout), there were some people holding a night vigil which seriously couldn't allow me sleep. I was drifting in and out, and due to their very loud shouts, I was having a lot of nightmares because I could not sleep peacefully. I do not know if it was coincidentally or whatever, but when they got to the part where they waged war against the night fliers* (because I could literally hear them pray even in my dreams because they were too loud), the thing came again, and held me down, with the scenario of the last one holding again.

What can this be? Is it normal? Who has had the same experience and what is it exactly?

Thank you.

* Withcraft.
I had a similar experience over twenty years ago. Here is a post I made several years ago:
I myself had a very frightening awakening in the middle of the night, and I felt as if there were a dark clawed animal on my chest as I lay in my bed. I decided at that moment to believe I was protected (since it had never happened before), and forced myself to immediately return to sleep. I guess either I imagined it, or that act of either faith or stubbornness somehow threw it off. I've always felt fear of the dark. Personally I think it was a 'Night terror'. Its never happened since. So whether there are really demons out there clawing at people in their beds I don't know.

...
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Like I said before, you have a good physical explanation.
My garden is wet. How can you tell if it is wet, due to rain? Other things are also wet, right.
What evidence do you have that I didn't wet those things? None.
I'd have to investigate further. Did it rain today? Do I see your garden hose lying around on the lawn?
I think you pretty much made your position clear.
If you aren't interested in knowing about Dark Matter, you aren't interested in knowing about demons... or anything else you don't care to know.
I said I don't know anything about dark matter and therefore I cannot and will not discuss something I don't know anything about.

Unless you're declaring that dark matter = demons, I don't know what your point is supposed to be.
They say, too bad for you.


Seems to me, you are the one needing to investigate. I am not the one saying I don't know about this or that, and frankly don't care, as "it's not my thing".
I need to investigate dark matter? Nah.
I know what you said. It's not.
You do understand what it mean to be a product of, right?
Of course I do.
You are saying the mind is consciousness?
I was talking about consciousness. Not the mind.
So you think consciousness and the mind are different things, or ... ?
Not "cut down", That's your experience.
Mine varnished. Completely. Gone. Period.
Like I said, you made some changes, and things changed. Great!
There aren't any Christians that do not believe in demons.
Even James - a true Christian, said...
(James 2:19) . . .the demons believe and shudder. . .

Entities believe. So those claiming to be Christian, and not believing in demons, are fooling themselves, unless they don't believe the Bible. Which, in either case, they are fooling themselves.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11) That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie.
My mother doesn't believe in demons. Nor my sister. They are Christians.

So all of this back and forth and we're no closer to understanding what demons are or how they supposedly operate or how they're responsible for sleep paralysis.
Nothing.
Nada.
:shrug:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'd have to investigate further. Did it rain today? Do I see your garden hose lying around on the lawn?
Let me hear how you will find out if rain fell in my vicinity... and how does my garden hose lying around tell you I used it any particular day?

I said I don't know anything about dark matter and therefore I cannot and will not discuss something I don't know anything about.

Unless you're declaring that dark matter = demons, I don't know what your point is supposed to be.

I need to investigate dark matter? Nah.

Of course I do.
Then there is no consensus on consciousness being "a product of" the brain.

So you think consciousness and the mind are different things, or ... ?
Most people do.

Like I said, you made some changes, and things changed. Great!

My mother doesn't believe in demons. Nor my sister. They are Christians.

So all of this back and forth and we're no closer to understanding what demons are or how they supposedly operate or how they're responsible for sleep paralysis.
Nothing.
Nada.
:shrug:
Really? Then everything I have said fell on "deaf ears"?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Let me hear how you will find out if rain fell in my vicinity...
Google.
and how does my garden hose lying around tell you I used it any particular day?
It tells me you may have used it recently. Or not. Perhaps I investigate further and see that it's broken, which means you may not have used it recently. More information is needed.
Then there is no consensus on consciousness being "a product of" the brain.
This was in response to, "I said I don't know anything about dark matter and therefore I cannot and will not discuss something I don't know anything about.

Unless you're declaring that dark matter = demons, I don't know what your point is supposed to be.

I need to investigate dark matter? Nah.

Of course I do."

:shrug:



Most people do.
I don't think that's true. But even if it is, most people have failed to demonstrate that.

And you've failed to address points I brought up about it. Like, how when the brain is damaged the mind is also damaged. Like how we have zero evidence for minds existing without brains. What evidence do you have that indicates that minds or consciousness or whatever and brains are separate things?
Really? Then everything I have said fell on "deaf ears"?
My ears are wide open, as are my eyes. Waiting for that evidence. Any day now ....

How can you show that demons exist, and that they cause sleep paralysis in human beings?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What are you going to type in... Did rain fall at 1 PP, in X location? Seriously?
Your not dealing with reality here. That's fantasy. Google does not have that information.

It tells me you may have used it recently. Or not.
No. It does not.

Perhaps I investigate further and see that it's broken, which means you may not have used it recently. More information is needed.
It's not broken, and you cannot tell if I used it to wet my face, or wet my garden.
This is pure ego tripping.

This was in response to, "I said I don't know anything about dark matter and therefore I cannot and will not discuss something I don't know anything about.

Unless you're declaring that dark matter = demons, I don't know what your point is supposed to be.

I need to investigate dark matter? Nah.

Of course I do."

:shrug:
No. It was in response to your claim that consciousness is a product of the brain.

I don't think that's true. But even if it is, most people have failed to demonstrate that.
Like you have?

And you've failed to address points I brought up about it. Like, how when the brain is damaged the mind is also damaged. Like how we have zero evidence for minds existing without brains. What evidence do you have that indicates that minds or consciousness or whatever and brains are separate things?
The experts address the assumptions related to what they can see, and what they don't know, but can only guess.
I only need the link to what those experts say. That's all.

My ears are wide open, as are my eyes. Waiting for that evidence. Any day now ....
I don't think that's true.

How can you show that demons exist, and that they cause sleep paralysis in human beings?
I can't show you a photograph, if that's what you mean.. You don't accept anything else, apparently.
 
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