I am torn!

[Spiral Galaxy]

I think a lot depends on your personal circumstances mrhamed19, such as whether or not you are financially dependent on your parents and what their reactions are likely to be if you share your new thoughts about their religion. It may be that you will have to keep your thoughts secret, at least in the short/medium term and as you hinted, the penalty for apostasy is not to be ignored.

 

[mrhamed19]

So by science you are convinced that creation was due to coincidence and chances,please help us to understand what you did understand so we may wake up as you did.

if you can pick up the Qur'an and read it, you can pick up a book on evolution and read that, it will answer everything you can ask me and explain it in more detail, and I know that no matter what I say to you it will result in a debate and no one will wake up and i'm not here to try to change peoples views and beliefs or have a debate. But yes, I do believe we were created by chance and coincidence and randomness and the purpose of life is whatever we make it.

We all know the tooth fairy doesn't exist, right? well I can argue it with you that she does exist and base my argument on faith and the lack of proof you can provide me that she is just a mythical character.

 

[FearGod]

if you can pick up the Qur'an and read it, you can pick up a book on evolution and read that, it will answer everything you can ask me and explain it in more detail, and I know that no matter what I say to you it will result in a debate and no one will wake up and i'm not here to try to change peoples views and beliefs or have a debate. But yes, I do believe we were created by chance and coincidence and randomness and the purpose of life is whatever we make it.

We all know the tooth fairy doesn't exist, right? well I can argue it with you that she does exist and base my argument on faith and the lack of proof you can provide me that she is just a mythical character.

So you have faith on randomnesses, coincidences and chances whereas others have faith that a creator did it, but my question is how science confirmed it to you that randomness and chances were behind it and not a creator.

 

[mrhamed19]

So you have faith on randomnesses, coincidences and chances whereas others have faith that a creator did it, but my question is how science confirmed it to you that randomness and chances were behind it and not a creator.

there are a few thing's:
God created the universe in 6 days.. time did not exist before the universe existed so how can someone come up with 6 day's? did he create time and then create the universe?
"Allah, there is no god but Him" In Hinduism alone, there may be as many as 330 million gods. Some religions worship a pantheon; some religions believe that there is a god in each of us or that we are all a part of a god. There are potentially billions of gods if you follow this system, what is so special about Allah?
The Qur'an has been shown to contain errors of anatomy, geography, history, biology, astronomy, grammar, logic etc. how can that possibly be from someone who is all-knowing? The God of the Qur'an wants death, war, and hatred. Reading about Muhammad in the Hadiths and Qur'an would clarify this to any reasonable person.

and last but not least: Islam's attitude toward free thinking is disgusting.

p.s: I tried bacon for the first time today, I recommend it to anyone who hasn't already done so.

 

[FearGod]

there are a few thing's:
God created the universe in 6 days.. time did not exist before the universe existed so how can someone come up with 6 day's? did he create time and then create the universe?
"Allah, there is no god but Him" In Hinduism alone, there may be as many as 330 million gods. Some religions worship a pantheon; some religions believe that there is a god in each of us or that we are all a part of a god. There are potentially billions of gods if you follow this system, what is so special about Allah?
The Qur'an has been shown to contain errors of anatomy, geography, history, biology, astronomy, grammar, logic etc. how can that possibly be from someone who is all-knowing? The God of the Qur'an wants death, war, and hatred. Reading about Muhammad in the Hadiths and Qur'an would clarify this to any reasonable person.

and last but not least: Islam's attitude toward free thinking is disgusting.

p.s: I tried bacon for the first time today, I recommend it to anyone who hasn't already done so.

Did you reach to this conclusion just when you went to college ? i think high school is more than enough to know such simple things.

About 6 days, yes God should say i created the universe before time existed,what a big mistake.

Many beliefs existed including atheism, but that doesn't mean that atheism is the only right choice.

You have mentioned that the quran have many errors whereas you didn't discuss any.

 

[DawudTalut]

Hi all sorry for the late reply. .........................

''What can you tell me about those incorrect facts in comparison to science only from what you know without looking them up online'' nothing, because anything I say has already been written online by plenty of others who share my opinion.

Peace be on you.
== Science is on going phenomenon. Many theories come then changed based on experiments.

== Problem is that many believers do not start study or ponder their own religion from childhood as much they study contemporary physical knowledge. The result is complete unbalance. On the other hands, there are many who study religion too much and not science and other physical knowledge. They are usually clerics who become inadequate guides.

== If Muslims start life with learning and practicing Quran and studying science, they will always feel happy about their faith.

== They study science in depth but they do not deeply ponder and check commentaries of Quran.

The kind of reaction I expect from my parents is being disowned to say the least.

Is it not possible that you live with them respectfully and do not debate.....(All along your posts, it is a trend that you rush to conclusions).....Is there any solid reason for what you are fearing from them?

''My thought is one can be a Muslim and deny nothing in modern science.'' that would just be cherry picking the bit's i like and disregarding everything else. ''Until college and minaret have crumbled, This holy work of ours will not be done.'' well yes, if education was to crumble then we would know no better than what is written in the holy book, but thanks to education we are able to question it.

Do you know that the first revelation to Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was what?

[96:2] Convey thou in the name of thy Lord Who created,
[96:3] Created man from a clot of blood.
[96:4] Convey! And thy Lord is Most Generous,
[96:5] Who taught man by the pen,
[96:6] Taught man what he knew not.

The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=1284&region=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2

My only wish is that my family and peers would accept me for who I am and the way I think just as I accept them for who they are

You do not have to debate them all the times. Have peaceful time with them in common matters.

.. But this will not happen, in fact I would qualify for the death sentence! yet another thing that I dislike about my religion.

Again this shows that, for one or another reason your personal knowledge about Islam and interpretations is very little about Islam.

If you please had read Holy Quran's following verse you had tried to see why it is different than what some Muslims says about apostacy!

The verse is:
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4.138)

If killing was the punishment, the verse would not have said second disbelief !!

In fact there is no such punishment, people have confused many issues. Please read here;

Punishment for Apostasy @ Punishment for Apostasy
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html

 

[DawudTalut]

there are a few thing's:
God created the universe in 6 days.. time did not exist before the universe existed so how can someone come up with 6 day's? did he create time and then create the universe?

[ch7:v55] Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods; then He settled Himself on the Throne. He makes the night cover the day, which pursues it swiftly. And He created the sun and the moon and the stars, all made subservient by His command. Verily, His is the creation and the command. Blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
The Holy Quran

Please increase horizon of your learning, a humble request.

Original world is 'yaum' is used, which means a period, not necessarily day.

How do we know, time did not exist before creation and guided-at- each-step-evolution of universe?

EDITED LATTER:
a) We can feel (x,y,z, t) But if we increase one more spatial coordinate, grasping becomes difficult.

b) Many people [believers and nonbelievers] experience true dreams etc. In this medium, one become free of spatial and times coordinates. (It is like time-machine). One such example is present in Holy Quran as:
[ch2:v260] Or like him who passed by a town which had fallen down upon its roofs, and exclaimed, ‘When will Allah restore it to life after its destruction?’ Then Allah caused him to die for a hundred years; then He raised him, and said: ‘How long hast thou remained in this state?’ He answered, ‘I have remained a day or part of a day.’ He said: ‘Nay, thou hast remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted. And look at thy ***. And We have done this that We may make thee a Sign unto men. And look at the bones, how We set them and then clothe them with flesh.’ And when this became clear to him, he said, ‘I know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills.’
Note 323 @ The Holy Quran

In Ahmadiyya muslims, many people stated such experiences and joined the Community. Years ago while they were non Ahmadis, they saw certain dream and met with spiritual leader. Much latter by a good chance, these seeings materialized and they strongly felt it was enough signs for them.

Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth @ Al Islam -Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth


Allah has been creator since ever to ever. None of His attribute ever stops to exist.

Allah

Useful link @
Al Islam - Multimedia (Audio/Video) Available Keywords/Tags

 

[Iti oj]

Congratulations on freeing your mind.

 

[Iti oj]

Time is a property of space. Thus with out space time doesnt exist, and on top of that time doesn't exist as we experience it. Its just a measurement . @DawudTalut

 

[ShivaFan]

Do not worry so much, and definetly do not assume just because a scientist or doctor comes to some conclusion means they are correct. The reason is, all your senses are imperfect. Your eyes can see only so far, but there are dimensions you cannot see, nor is your hand as steady as you think, your hearing is confused and there are sounds you cannot hear, smells, your size is relative to something else where you think you are normal height but you are a giant to one but an insect to another. So the scientist makes a telescope - or using machines humans invented, yet everything such is also imperfect because the machine was made with imperfect eyes, imperfect hands, the telescope is not perfect, nor the robot, nor the hammer, nor the candle, but the stone in the desert is perfect. You are imperfect in creating, but perfect in creation. That is what Allah says.

 

[DawudTalut]

................ There are potentially billions of gods if you follow this system, what is so special about Allah?

Peace be on you.
According to Islam, God is one,
[21:23] If there had been in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside Allah, then surely both would have gone to ruin. Glorified then be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, above what they attribute.

Have you ever thought why Jews and some sects in Christianity too believe in one God.

God has always been one, when His attributes were misunderstood they were considered as gods. Unity of God splits when believers forget basic teachings.

The Qur'an has been shown to contain errors of anatomy, geography, history, biology, astronomy, grammar, logic etc. how can that possibly be from someone who is all-knowing?

If you read counter arguments you will see, such 'errors' are nothings but lack of understanding.

The God of the Qur'an wants death, war, and hatred. Reading about Muhammad in the Hadiths and Qur'an would clarify this to any reasonable person.

I would have started from here. [2 links: Philosophy of teachings of Islam ....Introduction to the study of Holy Quran]

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

and last but not least: Islam's attitude toward free thinking is disgusting.

Somewhere one has to draw a line. Islam gives you full opportunity and solves many problems so that you move ahead.

p.s: I tried bacon for the first time today, I recommend it to anyone who hasn't already done so.

Pork was prohibited before Islam too.
By not eating such things, one does not do any benevolence to God but to oneself.
Why Religion? Why Islam? Life after death, Kaaba, Sects, Polygamy, Eating Pork

Good wishes.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Again this shows that, for one or another reason your personal knowledge about Islam and interpretations is very little about Islam.

If you please had read Holy Quran's following verse you had tried to see why it is different than what some Muslims says about apostacy!

The verse is:
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4.138)

If killing was the punishment, the verse would not have said second disbelief !!

In fact there is no such punishment, people have confused many issues. Please read here;

Punishment for Apostasy @ Punishment for Apostasy
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html

I'm staying out of this debate, for the most part, since I'm not sure I can add anything useful. But I did want to raise the point that in relation to apostasy laws, what the Quran says is not directly relevant. Inspired by the Quran, or accurate as per the Quran notwithstanding, there are countries with strict apostasy laws. We can agree they are misguided, but we can't disbelieve them out of existence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

mrhamed19, you are young. Pay attention to what you learn in college. Make a carrer for yourself. Debate about belief and religion is long-term. I started when I was 15 and am engaged in it even today. (That is more than half a Century)

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I am a British Muslim, my parents are also Muslim along with most of those I socialize with and I have had no problem with my religion, I would never have dared doubt my religion at one point up until recently.. I have always been amazed by science especially the universe & physics and most of all (it may sound silly) time travel :/ I have applied to university to study these subjects. The thing that really bother me is the deeper i dive in to my scientific studies the more I loose faith in my religion and now I have come to a point where I can no longer read the Qur'an without thinking "seriously???" my "holy" book has become more of a book of lame jokes and incorrect scientific "facts". My parents and peers have no idea what is going on inside my head, as far as they are aware I am no different than I have ever been and I know that spitting out the truth will cause a whole world of chaos for me! Sometimes I just want to slap my friends and tell them to WAKE UP this is insane! I'm torn.. so torn I needed to let this out somewhere, has anyone else here gone through this phrase in their life? what do I do?

ps: if you are going to convince me to change how I feel.. please don't say "have faith" I already have faith, I have faith that the Qu'ran is corrupt.

You need to realize that science as it is does not support the fact that freedom is a reality. Basically you have been learning about everything as if it was a machine, that it is all forced. Naturally one would lose sight of the spirit that way.

You need to get some facts about how things are chosen in nature. That events in nature truly can turn out several different ways, that it is decided. Then you will start to acknowledge the spirit again which chooses over the material.

 

[Spiral Galaxy]

You need to realize that science as it is does not support the fact that freedom is a reality. Basically you have been learning about everything as if it was a machine, that it is all forced. Naturally one would lose sight of the spirit that way.

Do you mean that freedom is a reality but using the scientific method would lead to the conclusion that freedom is not a reality? Whose freedom are you describing and what are they free to do?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Do you mean that freedom is a reality but using the scientific method would lead to the conclusion that freedom is not a reality? Whose freedom are you describing and what are they free to do?

Science currently has a problem with acknowledging freedom is a reality. The scientific method in practise is too much based around cause and effect logic, things being forced, and not based around alternatives decision logic.

What science should be based on, is ofcourse neither the logic of freedom or force, but simply the logic of how to obtain facts. Decisions are simply a matter of fact issue, what the available alternatives are is a matter of fact issue.

What you see is when you discuss a decision with a scientist, then always they will turn the discussion around and say, well this event cannot really turn out several different ways, or I don't know if it can turn out several different ways etc.

Ofcourse you cannot have much of any religion when the fact that freedom is real is systematically undermined.

To discuss it we need some specific event where you accept it true as fact that there are several outcomes possible. That the result is not forced, that any of the possibilities may become the present.

If X can turn out left or right, and X turns out left. Then we get the question, what made X turn out left instead of right? There is nothing forcing this result, so that question is where science stops and religion begins.

 

[Debater Slayer]

So by science you are convinced that creation was due to coincidence and chances,please help us to understand what you did understand so we may wake up as you did.

I think it's obvious that the OP is looking for advice to cope with his current situation and not looking for anyone to preach to him or try to change his mind.

He's free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

 

[FearGod]

I think it's obvious that the OP is looking for advice to cope with his current situation and not looking for anyone to preach to him or try to change his mind.

He's free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

Anyone can be an atheist by heart, so i believe being afraid of being killed by his parents because of his beliefs is a silly one.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Anyone can be an atheist by heart, so i believe being afraid of being killed by his parents because of his beliefs is a silly one.

It is not silly at all. Yes, he can keep his non-belief a secret, but that means he either has to put up a facade almost all the time or risk getting killed or disowned. I strongly sympathize with his situation. It's the same position many people, including many atheists and LGBT people in particularly conservative places, find themselves in.

 

[FearGod]

Science currently has a problem with acknowledging freedom is a reality. The scientific method in practise is too much based around cause and effect logic, things being forced, and not based around alternatives decision logic.

What science should be based on, is ofcourse neither the logic of freedom or force, but simply the logic of how to obtain facts. Decisions are simply a matter of fact issue, what the available alternatives are is a matter of fact issue.

What you see is when you discuss a decision with a scientist, then always they will turn the discussion around and say, well this event cannot really turn out several different ways, or I don't know if it can turn out several different ways etc.

Ofcourse you cannot have much of any religion when the fact that freedom is real is systematically undermined.

To discuss it we need some specific event where you accept it true as fact that there are several outcomes possible. That the result is not forced, that any of the possibilities may become the present.

If X can turn out left or right, and X turns out left. Then we get the question, what made X turn out left instead of right? There is nothing forcing this result, so that question is where science stops and religion begins.

That what surprise me, for him, science gave him all the answers.

I don't believe his story, it is just made up.