Hypocracy and the Hagia Sophia....among other things

[BUDDY]

Would it be immoral for one group of people to move into another groups region, conquer them and then take their religious holy places and make them their own under a different religion? Then, centuries later, would it be immoral for those people under that religion, to then protest the visit of that old religions leader, and their wish to visit said relgious sight? Yes you say? Then why is it okay for muslims in Istanbul to protest the visit of the Pope, who wished to go to the Hagia Sophia? The Hagia Sophia was built by Emperor Justinian in 532 AD as the first Cathedral of Constantinople. It was and still is by many, considered to be one of the most holy sights in christianity. When the Pope visited last week, there were vicious protests by muslim groups, who were demanding that the Pope not be allowed to visit the building.

Now, what do you think would happen if Christians did not allow Muslims to visit a sight that they both hold dearly, but that was controlled by christians?

What do you think would happen if the same thing occured between Jews and muslims?

Tell you what. If you thought the reaction to some stupid cartoons was over the top, just try doing to muslims what was done to the Pope last week and see what happens. I am so fed up with those who call for peace and understanding on one hand, and then do nothing when they see such things happen, or worse yet when they join in the fray. I for one would have liked to see the Pope enter the Hagia Sophia, take a knee, say a prayer, and make the sign of the cross before standing and giving a two hour sermon about the sins of hate.

 

[Djamila]

Constantinople no longer exists, Buddy - debating an issue as though it was 1413 will get you nowhere.

And the Christians did the same things there the Muslims did. The Greeks and Arabs came and went, the Anatolians - today's Turks - remain, and they can make Istanbul whatever the hell they want.

 

[BUDDY]

Constantinople no longer exists, Buddy - debating an issue as though it was 1413 will get you nowhere.

And the Christians did the same things there the Muslims did. The Greeks and Arabs came and went, the Anatolians - today's Turks - remain, and they can make Istanbul whatever the hell they want.

I am debating the fact that such vihiment protests by muslims over the visit by the pope to a christian holy place, is given a blind eye by so many. I am debating the fact that muslims in the owrld are so often given a free ride and not asked to answer for their actions, views and beliefs because it is looked at as not politically correct. I am debating the fact that so few people stand up to those who protest because those who are being protested against are looked at in the main stream as being deserving of their wrath and condemnation. But, mostly I am debating because you still didn't answer either of my first two questions, and this is a current event, not one that is centuries old.

 

[BUDDY]

Constantinople no longer exists, Buddy - debating an issue as though it was 1413 will get you nowhere.

And the Christians did the same things there the Muslims did. The Greeks and Arabs came and went, the Anatolians - today's Turks - remain, and they can make Istanbul whatever the hell they want.

By the way. Muslims are and have been screaming for the return of their lands. Why is it wrong to ask that former christian holy places be recognized for what they are and returned to christians to worship in?

 

[Djamila]

It's wrong because religion has no relevance to who the land belongs to. The Anatolian Muslims who live in Turkey today are largely the descendants of the Anatolian Christians who used to live there, and converted.

It's the same situation in Bosnia. We used to be Christian, we had our own indigenous Church - the Bosnian Church. Just because we're no longer Christian doesn't mean were squatters on Christian land. We converted. We live here, we've lived here as long as Slavs have lived in the Balkans, and we don't belong in Turkey anymore than Turks belong in Saudi Arabia.

This is our land, and just because we converted doesn't give anyone the right to take it from us.

 

[James the Persian]

It's wrong because religion has no relevance to who the land belongs to. The Anatolian Muslims who live in Turkey today are largely the descendants of the Anatolian Christians who used to live there, and converted.

It's the same situation in Bosnia. We used to be Christian, we had our own indigenous Church - the Bosnian Church. Just because we're no longer Christian doesn't mean were squatters on Christian land. We converted. We live here, we've lived here as long as Slavs have lived in the Balkans, and we don't belong in Turkey anymore than Turks belong in Saudi Arabia.

This is our land, and just because we converted doesn't give anyone the right to take it from us.

You're partly right, but in the western portion of Istanbul, that part which was once Constantinople, you are not. The vast majority of Orthodox Christians there were forced out by the Turks in the early part of the 20th century. Many were killed and tortured for their faith. It is therefore, incorrect to suggest that the current inhabitants are the descendants of those who built Haghia Sophia (especially as they weren't Anatolian in any case) Elsewhere in western Turkey, an entire majority Greek city was burnt down with its inhabitants in it (Smyrna). After the ethnic cleansing of Christians (both Armenian and Greek) from Turkey the populations were wildly different to how they had been before and your claim makes no sense. Western Istanbul was certainly not majority Muslim before the establishment of Turkey and those that were, were not native. The Ottomans had a decidedly poor success rate with converting Greeks.

In any case though, Turkey ought to return Haghia Sophia to us if for no other reason than that it is a great architectural treasure and we would actually look after it properly. The Turks no longer use it as a mosque so it should mean nothing to them religiously and it was a cathedral for far more of its history anyway. The current Turkish policy of lettting the building rot (seemingly deliberately) rather than restoring and maintaining it is nothing less than cultural vandalism, a sort of slower equivalent to what the Taliban did at Bamayan.

James

 

[Djamila]

Turkey should destroy the Hagia Sofia as Greece destroyed most every Islamic site in the country, then you'd all have nothing to lord over them.

They should completely forget about their Christian heritage, as Greece has completely forgotten it's 5 centuries of Islamic rule - or, better yet, they should remember only the negative aspects of their Christian heritage - remember the racism, remember the slavery, remember the torture.

Turkey should try it's very best to become a Muslim Greece - where Islam is everything and any historical signs that something else ever existed there are erased.

And then you all can down to Turkey like they're somehow worse than anyone else in the region.

 

[James the Persian]

Turkey should destroy the Hagia Sofia as Greece destroyed most every Islamic site in the country, then you'd all have nothing to lord over them.

They should completely forget about their Christian heritage, as Greece has completely forgotten it's 5 centuries of Islamic rule - or, better yet, they should remember only the negative aspects of their Christian heritage - remember the racism, remember the slavery, remember the torture.

Turkey should try it's very best to become a Muslim Greece - where Islam is everything and any historical signs that something else ever existed there are erased.

And then you all can down to Turkey like they're somehow worse than anyone else in the region.

Just because I oppose what Turkey is doing does not mean that I applaud what Greece did. Both were wrong (though Greece's actions were considerably less bloody). I see, however, that you don't deny that what I said was true which implies that you admit that the people in Istanbul are not, in the main, the descendants of those who built Haghia Sophia. Nice to see you finally letting slip the mask and showing your true feelings in public. You are by no means the moderate I once took you to be.

James

 

[Djamila]

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about you.

The Greek government would not allow the City of Athens to either construct or designate an existing building for use as a Mosque during the Olympic Games a few years ago - the first city in the history of the modern Olympics to not allow such.

Muslim Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks - as well as Slavic, Orthodox Christian Macedonians in Greece - are even worse off than Christians in Turkey, but no one talks about it. It's all about a stupid religious building in Istanbul than the Turk's should've just destroyed.

You don't hear Muslims in the Balkans crying for the Grand Mosque of Athens, or the Sultan's Monastery in Salonica, because they no longer exist. It was a horrible thing to do, but if it gave Greece some peace from the political objectives of outsiders - then it was a benefitial decision.

I see no reason why Turkey shouldn't do the same thing. It's sad they have to but people like you will never rest, and Turkey will never be left alone until they follow Greece's example.

 

[James the Persian]

Muslim Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks - as well as Slavic, Orthodox Christian Macedonians in Greece - are even worse off than Christians in Turkey, but no one talks about it. It's all about a stupid religious building in Istanbul than the Turk's should've just destroyed.

Would you care to provide some evidence for this absurd claim? I know for a fact that non-Greek Orthodox are treated perfectly fine in Greece. If you mean members of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, then you are dissembling to suggest that they are Orthodox, because they are not. As for Muslims, I don't know of any state laws in Greece that are so oppressive towards them as the laws of Turkey are towards Orthodox Christians. Would you care to delineate what Greek laws you are referring to so that we can compare them?

James

 

[Djamila]

Would you care to provide some evidence for this absurd claim? I know for a fact that non-Greek Orthodox are treated perfectly fine in Greece. If you mean members of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, then you are dissembling to suggest that they are Orthodox, because they are not. As for Muslims, I don't know of any state laws in Greece that are so oppressive towards them as the laws of Turkey are towards Orthodox Christians. Would you care to delineate what Greek laws you are referring to so that we can compare them?

James

Well, just with a simple Google search:

While no new laws have been passed in Greece and in Turkey, it should be noted that these countries have had constitutional provisions, laws and government policies for many years that violate OSCE commitments on religious liberty. With respect to Greek law, especially onerous are the anti-proselytism provisions, including Article 13 of the Constitution and the Metaxas-era Laws of Necessity 1363/1938 and 1672/1939, which have been used almost exclusively against religious minorities. These statutes have an adverse impact on religious liberty in the Hellenic Republic and are inconsistent with numerous OSCE commitments, including paragraph 16 of the Vienna Document and paragraph 9 of the 1990 Copenhagen Document. We urge repeal of these laws in order to help ensure the freedom of all individuals in Greece to profess and practice their religion or belief.
We are well aware of the controversy surrounding the selection of individuals to serve as Mufti in the Hellenic Republic and understand that relevant Muslim practices vary from country to country. In this regard, we stress the importance of respecting the right of members of the Muslim community to organize themselves according to their own hierarchical and institutional structure, including in the selection, appointment, and replacement of their personnel in a manner consistent with relevant OSCE commitments. We are particularly disturbed over the lengthy prison sentences - a total of 49 months - handed down against Mehmet Emin Aga for "usurping the title of Mufti."
We are also concerned by the burdensome Greek requirements imposed on minority religious communities to obtain special permits issued by "competent ecclesiastical authorities" and the Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs for the establishment or operation of churches, including places of worship. Reportedly, permission for the construction or repair of places of worship is often difficult or impossible to obtain despite the commitment of OSCE participating States to respect the right of religious communities to establish and maintain freely accessible places of worship or assembly.

Historically non-Orthodox churches have encountered difficulties in securing so-called "House of Prayer" permits although it appears the record for approval of permits is improving. Members of the Muslim community have similarly reported difficulty in securing permission for the repair of mosques, including the Suleymaniye Mosque on Rhodes. The rights of individuals belonging to minority religions or beliefs must be fully respected without discrimination or subordination. In this regard, we are aware of the pending request submitted by a community of the Macedonian Orthodox Church seeking to open a church building to conduct worship services in the Florina area.

The United States remains concerned over the inclusion of religious affiliation on Greek national identity cards. The inclusion of such information on this widely used document could lead to discrimination against individuals from minority religions or beliefs. Accordingly, we urge the repeal of the 1993 identity law. In addition, we urge further action to implement the recommendations of the advisory committee on anti-Semitic references in public school textbooks.

In a positive development, we note the Greek law on conscientious objection that came into force earlier this year and understand that the authorities are instituting arrangements whereby those objectors imprisoned under the old law will be given the option of engaging in alternative civilian social service.

http://www.mwlusa.org/presentations/speech_poland.html

 

[James the Persian]

Well, just with a simple Google search:

While no new laws have been passed in Greece and in Turkey, it should be noted that these countries have had constitutional provisions, laws and government policies for many years that violate OSCE commitments on religious liberty. With respect to Greek law, especially onerous are the anti-proselytism provisions, including Article 13 of the Constitution and the Metaxas-era Laws of Necessity 1363/1938 and 1672/1939, which have been used almost exclusively against religious minorities. These statutes have an adverse impact on religious liberty in the Hellenic Republic and are inconsistent with numerous OSCE commitments, including paragraph 16 of the Vienna Document and paragraph 9 of the 1990 Copenhagen Document. We urge repeal of these laws in order to help ensure the freedom of all individuals in Greece to profess and practice their religion or belief.
We are well aware of the controversy surrounding the selection of individuals to serve as Mufti in the Hellenic Republic and understand that relevant Muslim practices vary from country to country. In this regard, we stress the importance of respecting the right of members of the Muslim community to organize themselves according to their own hierarchical and institutional structure, including in the selection, appointment, and replacement of their personnel in a manner consistent with relevant OSCE commitments. We are particularly disturbed over the lengthy prison sentences - a total of 49 months - handed down against Mehmet Emin Aga for "usurping the title of Mufti."
We are also concerned by the burdensome Greek requirements imposed on minority religious communities to obtain special permits issued by "competent ecclesiastical authorities" and the Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs for the establishment or operation of churches, including places of worship. Reportedly, permission for the construction or repair of places of worship is often difficult or impossible to obtain despite the commitment of OSCE participating States to respect the right of religious communities to establish and maintain freely accessible places of worship or assembly.

Historically non-Orthodox churches have encountered difficulties in securing so-called "House of Prayer" permits although it appears the record for approval of permits is improving. Members of the Muslim community have similarly reported difficulty in securing permission for the repair of mosques, including the Suleymaniye Mosque on Rhodes. The rights of individuals belonging to minority religions or beliefs must be fully respected without discrimination or subordination. In this regard, we are aware of the pending request submitted by a community of the Macedonian Orthodox Church seeking to open a church building to conduct worship services in the Florina area.

The United States remains concerned over the inclusion of religious affiliation on Greek national identity cards. The inclusion of such information on this widely used document could lead to discrimination against individuals from minority religions or beliefs. Accordingly, we urge the repeal of the 1993 identity law. In addition, we urge further action to implement the recommendations of the advisory committee on anti-Semitic references in public school textbooks.

In a positive development, we note the Greek law on conscientious objection that came into force earlier this year and understand that the authorities are instituting arrangements whereby those objectors imprisoned under the old law will be given the option of engaging in alternative civilian social service.

http://www.mwlusa.org/presentations/speech_poland.html

All of which (and more, such as the forbidding of all religious education establishments) are practiced by Turkey against Christians. So where is your evidence that Muslims in Greece are worse off than Christians in Turkey, because what you've supplied evidence for is a slightly less draconian subset of what Christians endure there? I have nothing good to say about Greek law in this regard and it should certainly be changed, but the issue in Constantinople is not purely a Greek issue is it? And you don't get to claim to be a civilised country by saying 'But they're just as bad'.

Still, I'm not willing to advocate the destruction of the few mosques in Romania nor the expulsion of the country's muslim's, nor their mistreatment, so why can't I deplore what Turkey does to those of my faith? I, after all, am not Greek and do not support their government. Strange that. You're not Turkish either but you seem to support their abuses and, in fact, would advocate worse still. And which of us is being immoderate again?


James

 

[Djamila]

I'd never advocate anything that would result in physical harm to another human being. You're constantly imagining things about what I say - in our last debate you practically accused me of denying the Holocaust because I said Croatia was occupied in 1992-1995. If you're that desperate to not have to speak about the issues we're actually discussing, then just don't.

I just think Greece gets off so easy, no one makes much of a fuss about minorities in that country - while everyone is so concerned about what happens in Turkey. So... Turkey should learn from Greece, and should do whatever it is Greece has done, so that it may be treated as an equal.

If you look at what Greece has done, the most striking solution is simply: Destroy everything in Turkey that doesn't belong to the dominant religion, including the Hagia Sofia, Ephesus, the Virgin Mary's House, and so on. Then the Turkish government can assume control of the Orthodox Christian Church's heirarchy, as Greece has done. They can impose their own Patriarch and arrest whoever the Orthodox Church chooses instead.

And then Turkey will be a perfectly acceptable country in European eyes, and won't have to answer for anything either, yes?

 

[Djamila]

Anyhow, I'm bowing out of this thread before we annoy the mods again.

Just to make my opinion clear... if Istanbul's Orthodox Christian population wishes to use Hagia Sofia for religious purposes, I think that's fine. It was also a mosque 500 years, so if the Islamic community wants to use it as well, I think that's fine too. I do believe the Turkish decision to transform the building into a museum of the country's Christian and Islamic heritage was the wisest decision, to honor both and prevent conflict, but apparently you can't do enough to please those who simply tore down their similar structures.

Politically, Hagia Sofia cannot become a victory for those who wish to undermine the Turkish state. It cannot become the equivalent of an Islamic fundamentalist mosque in the middle of London. There has to be some government regulation of what can and cannot take place there, just as there must be similar regulations for all religious structures. Political sermons, whether at a mosque or a church, should be illegal in my opinion.

I've been at mosques for political sermons and I walked out. My friend Mirjana, who is Orthodox Christian, left her church during the war in Kosovo because - in her words - "they made Sveti Save the equivalent of Jesus, and Kosovo the equivalent of the Garden of Eden. It wasn't religion, it was politics." These sorts of things can't be allowed to take root in Turkey.

So I think keeping it as a museum, but allowing religious groups to use the facility, is the best solution in the current circumstances. And that's it, have fun.

 

[BUDDY]

Anyhow, I'm bowing out of this thread before we annoy the mods again.

Just to make my opinion clear... if Istanbul's Orthodox Christian population wishes to use Hagia Sofia for religious purposes, I think that's fine. It was also a mosque 500 years, so if the Islamic community wants to use it as well, I think that's fine too. I do believe the Turkish decision to transform the building into a museum of the country's Christian and Islamic heritage was the wisest decision, to honor both and prevent conflict, but apparently you can't do enough to please those who simply tore down their similar structures.

Politically, Hagia Sofia cannot become a victory for those who wish to undermine the Turkish state. It cannot become the equivalent of an Islamic fundamentalist mosque in the middle of London. There has to be some government regulation of what can and cannot take place there, just as there must be similar regulations for all religious structures. Political sermons, whether at a mosque or a church, should be illegal in my opinion.

I've been at mosques for political sermons and I walked out. My friend Mirjana, who is Orthodox Christian, left her church during the war in Kosovo because - in her words - "they made Sveti Save the equivalent of Jesus, and Kosovo the equivalent of the Garden of Eden. It wasn't religion, it was politics." These sorts of things can't be allowed to take root in Turkey.

So I think keeping it as a museum, but allowing religious groups to use the facility, is the best solution in the current circumstances. And that's it, have fun.

But was the reaction by muslims to the popes visit vidiculous? I think that it was. It is that reactionary state of mind and the mob mentality which I have observed in many, many muslims, that scares me the most about Islam.

 

[James the Persian]

I'd never advocate anything that would result in physical harm to another human being. You're constantly imagining things about what I say - in our last debate you practically accused me of denying the Holocaust because I said Croatia was occupied in 1992-1995. If you're that desperate to not have to speak about the issues we're actually discussing, then just don't.

No. You're constantly misinterpreting what I say and making unwarranted assumptions about my position. I never accused you of denying the Holocaust. All I did say was that your defending genocide (which you did do) was not something I was liable to stand for as I lost family in the Holocaust. I've explained this to you already and your airing your misconception as though it were fact here now is clearly an attempt to attack me for something I never said. I never said you were advocating harm against humans, but you were advocating the wanton destruction of an architectural, cultural and religious treasure which in my mind, at least, is a crime. You on the other hand, assume that because I criticise Turkey I will not accept that Greece is due criticism also, which simply is not true. Please don't read your own prejudices onto me. Whereas you appear to believe certain things are OK if your side perpetrates them on us, I believe them to be crimes no matter who instigates them.

I just think Greece gets off so easy, no one makes much of a fuss about minorities in that country - while everyone is so concerned about what happens in Turkey. So... Turkey should learn from Greece, and should do whatever it is Greece has done, so that it may be treated as an equal.

So, in your mind two wrongs make a right? In mine they just compound a wrong, which I guess is where we differ.

If you look at what Greece has done, the most striking solution is simply: Destroy everything in Turkey that doesn't belong to the dominant religion, including the Hagia Sofia, Ephesus, the Virgin Mary's House, and so on. Then the Turkish government can assume control of the Orthodox Christian Church's heirarchy, as Greece has done. They can impose their own Patriarch and arrest whoever the Orthodox Church chooses instead.

They are trying to destroy Haghia Sophia by letting it rot (good job they don't do it directly because the political fallout of such an act would be much worse than hey would desire - I'd advise any Turkish government that did so to consider watching Russia carefully). Not sure how Ephesus is Christian. Sure, there were important Christians there, but there were in many other cities also, some ruined some not. Should the Turks raze them all? (By the way, I've been to Ephesus and know some of the Turks in the area well and, I can assure you that most of them would consider what you're saying here to be fanatical - most of them still remember Smyrna just up the road, and not fondly). As for the 'Virgin Mary's House', it has nothing to do with her, is way too recent, and is in entirely the wrong place (if she died there it's somehow been miraculously transported from Jerusalem) so if you think that would have any effect on us, then think again. It might not be wise to antagonise the RCs that way, though. As for the EP, I'd like it if they would interfere directly because no other Orthodox would accept their puppet and we might finally move the Patriarchate out of Istanbul (much as Antioch has moved to Damascus). That would free the actual EP from the constant interference and pressure of the Turkish government who, whatever you might imply to the contrary, do in fact meddle in the Patriarchate's internal affairs and can and will boycot any appointment of which they disapprove.

And then Turkey will be a perfectly acceptable country in European eyes, and won't have to answer for anything either, yes?

No. I don't think you understand at all. Behaving as your enemies do does not make you decent - it makes you monstrous - and if the Greeks were to take the attitude you have come up with here it would be disastrous in terms of Muslim lives, not property, in Greece. If they were to copy Turkey's past then there would be a genocide. The fact is that both sides have to say that enough is enough and admit their own past mistakes. It is the failure to do the latter that, in my opinion, precludes the Turkish state from being a civilised one. I have nothing whatsoever against Turks. I have friends who are Turkish, but any government that is not willing to admit to past genocides is guilty of genocide denial and any (and yes, I mean any) government that disallows religious freedom is worthy of villification.

James

 

[Booko]

Turkey should destroy the Hagia Sofia as Greece destroyed most every Islamic site in the country, then you'd all have nothing to lord over them.

They should completely forget about their Christian heritage, as Greece has completely forgotten it's 5 centuries of Islamic rule - or, better yet, they should remember only the negative aspects of their Christian heritage - remember the racism, remember the slavery, remember the torture.

Turkey should try it's very best to become a Muslim Greece - where Islam is everything and any historical signs that something else ever existed there are erased.

And then you all can down to Turkey like they're somehow worse than anyone else in the region.

Two wrongs make a right?

I was also wondering how this would work with what Muhammad had to say, and the actions of His life. He didn't seem to be in the habit of destroying anything that was Christian, and avoided interfering in their worship on any level.

 

[Ulver]

Turkey should destroy the Hagia Sofia as Greece destroyed most every Islamic site in the country, then you'd all have nothing to lord over them.

They should completely forget about their Christian heritage, as Greece has completely forgotten it's 5 centuries of Islamic rule - or, better yet, they should remember only the negative aspects of their Christian heritage - remember the racism, remember the slavery, remember the torture.

Turkey should try it's very best to become a Muslim Greece - where Islam is everything and any historical signs that something else ever existed there are erased.

And then you all can down to Turkey like they're somehow worse than anyone else in the region.

I have to strongly disagree with that sentiment. Works of Art should not be destroyed for essentially the sake of Nationalism(which entails Religion). Such things have been done in the past, but that doesn't mean they were right.

For example I'm very happy the Egyptians don't destroy the Pyramids.

 

[Ðanisty]

I would never advocate destroying anything historically important.