How We Know

[IndigoChild5559]

Appreciate that. Thanks.
Is that a teaching among all Jews, or different sects?
Could you outline in detail, so I can follow.

You are saying the evening of Nisan 14 begins the feast of unleavened bread?
Are you saying until the afternoon of that day preparation is made? Can you outline details of what is prepared, and for what time.

You said "That evening, Nisan 15 (remember the day begins at sundown) was the Seder Meal, which was the Passover"
I'm a bit confused here. Perhaps you can clarify.
Nisan 14 to Nisan 15 Sundown... that's one day. Is that Passover? Is it the feast of unleavened bread?
So does Passover begin Nisan 14, or Nisan 15?

Could you also use Leviticus 23:4-8 in explaining?

I don't think that this is something that different denominatiuons dispute. I mean, history is history. Today, because we cannot sacrifice (there is no temple) we hold a Seder Meal on the 14 Nisan as well, so that there are two nights where we hold Seders.

According to the Chabad Rabbi, Nisan 14 begins the seven day feast of unleavened bread--that's different from what leviticus says. We have in advance cleaned our houses of anything with leavening, whether it is yeast or baking soda or anything else. All wheat products are gone. No beer. The house is thoroughly cleaned so as to remove even any crumbs from shelves or floors. Then for seven days, instead of bread, we eat only Matzah (unleavened bread).

Again, the day in Judaism begins at SUNSET. So evening comes before morning, which comes before afternoon. If you read Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus sends his disciples out on Nisan 14 in the afternoon to make preparations for the Seder Meal in the evening, which would mean Nisan 15, Passover. Jesus would therefore be crucified on the Passover, Nisan 15. But in John, it speaks of the trial of Jesus being on the day of preparation, which would mean that the Last Supper was NOT a Seder meal. This is because John has a theology that Jesus is the Passover sacrifice, thus it was important that he be executed on the day of preparation, Nisan 14.

Again, just to clarify, Nisan 14 from sunset to sunset, is the day of preparation when the lambs were offered, and the first day of the week long feast of unleavened bread. Nisan 15, starting at sunset, would be Passover, when the Seder Meals were had.

And a reminder -- this has changed now that there is no temple for sacrifice. We now observe Passover Seder Meals on two nights, Nisan 14 & 15.

IMPORTANT NOTE: what the Chabad rabbi told me is at odds with Leviticus 23:4-8, which states that the Passover is on the 14 and the feast of unleavened bread starts on the 15. I don't know how that came to be. But there is no Torah without oral Torah, so how the rabbis interpreted the Law is really where the rubber meets the road.

Another source of difficulty is that the Festival of Matzos has come to commonly be known as Passover, meaning we Jews today use the label of Passover to refer to the whole week, which is quite different than the Biblical language. Here is a good article on WHY PASSOVER IS ON NISAN 15 https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...hy-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

Again, this is not my area of expertise. I'm only relaying information that I received from the Chabad Rabbi. One website I chanced upon said that the feast of unleavened bread starts on Nisan 15. So I'm confused about this as well. I will be asking a lot of questions about this at the Seder Meal I'm attending this Friday night!!!!

My suggestion to you is in the meantime to ask one of the two rabbis in the forum about this. They are MUCH more qualified to answer this than I am. I've done the best i can, but I feel like my efforts have only increased the confusion. sigh*

 

[nPeace]

I don't think that this is something that different denominatiuons dispute. I mean, history is history. Today, because we cannot sacrifice (there is no temple) we hold a Seder Meal on the 14 Nisan as well, so that there are two nights where we hold Seders.

According to the Chabad Rabbi, Nisan 14 begins the seven day feast of unleavened bread--that's different from what leviticus says. We have in advance cleaned our houses of anything with leavening, whether it is yeast or baking soda or anything else. All wheat products are gone. No beer. The house is thoroughly cleaned so as to remove even any crumbs from shelves or floors. Then for seven days, instead of bread, we eat only Matzah (unleavened bread).

Again, the day in Judaism begins at SUNSET. So evening comes before morning, which comes before afternoon. If you read Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus sends his disciples out on Nisan 14 in the afternoon to make preparations for the Seder Meal in the evening, which would mean Nisan 15, Passover. Jesus would therefore be crucified on the Passover, Nisan 15. But in John, it speaks of the trial of Jesus being on the day of preparation, which would mean that the Last Supper was NOT a Seder meal. This is because John has a theology that Jesus is the Passover sacrifice, thus it was important that he be executed on the day of preparation, Nisan 14.

Again, just to clarify, Nisan 14 from sunset to sunset, is the day of preparation when the lambs were offered, and the first day of the week long feast of unleavened bread. Nisan 15, starting at sunset, would be Passover, when the Seder Meals were had.

And a reminder -- this has changed now that there is no temple for sacrifice. We now observe Passover Seder Meals on two nights, Nisan 14 & 15.

IMPORTANT NOTE: what the Chabad rabbi told me is at odds with Leviticus 23:4-8, which states that the Passover is on the 14 and the feast of unleavened bread starts on the 15. I don't know how that came to be. But there is no Torah without oral Torah, so how the rabbis interpreted the Law is really where the rubber meets the road.

Another source of difficulty is that the Festival of Matzos has come to commonly be known as Passover, meaning we Jews today use the label of Passover to refer to the whole week, which is quite different than the Biblical language. Here is a good article on WHY PASSOVER IS ON NISAN 15 https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...hy-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

Again, this is not my area of expertise. I'm only relaying information that I received from the Chabad Rabbi. One website I chanced upon said that the feast of unleavened bread starts on Nisan 15. So I'm confused about this as well. I will be asking a lot of questions about this at the Seder Meal I'm attending this Friday night!!!!

My suggestion to you is in the meantime to ask one of the two rabbis in the forum about this. They are MUCH more qualified to answer this than I am. I've done the best i can, but I feel like my efforts have only increased the confusion. sigh*

Don't feel bad that you are confused. You should be.
I'm just pulling your leg. Thanks for all the information. I will go through it more thoroughly later, and get back to you.
Meanwhile, a quick question.
Would you say Leviticus 23:4-8 is wrong?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Don't feel bad that you are confused. You should be.
I'm just pulling your leg. Thanks for all the information. I will go through it more thoroughly later, and get back to you.
Meanwhile, a quick question.
Would you say Leviticus 23:4-8 is wrong?

No, not wrong. Has it been amended? That is the question. Obviously we cannot offer the Passover sacrifice since there is no temple. So it ultimately has to be amended.

 

[pearl]

According to the Chabad Rabbi, Nisan 14 begins the seven day feast of unleavened bread--that's different from what leviticus says. We have in advance cleaned our houses of anything with leavening, whether it is yeast or baking soda or anything else. All wheat products are gone. No beer. The house is thoroughly cleaned so as to remove even any crumbs from shelves or floors. Then for seven days, instead of bread, we eat only Matzah (unleavened bread).

The Orthodox health facility where I was employed for several years held the Passover regulations through to sundown on the 'eighth' day.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry I took so long in getting back here - keeping you in eager anticipation . I had to do a bit of research, but didn't have as much time since more importantly, this week is the week of the memorial of Christ death, where JWs faithfully and excitedly commemorate his death on Nisan 14, which was the 15 th of this month... yesterday actually.

I don't think that this is something that different denominatiuons dispute. I mean, history is history. Today, because we cannot sacrifice (there is no temple) we hold a Seder Meal on the 14 Nisan as well, so that there are two nights where we hold Seders.

It may surprise you to learn that in first century Judaism there were five Jewish sects which observed “Passover,” each with distinct days for the sacrifice of their lambs. These Passovers were the Mosaic Passover, the Samaritan’s Passover, the Essene’s Passover, the Sadducees’ Passover, and the Pharisaic Passover.

According to the Chabad Rabbi, Nisan 14 begins the seven day feast of unleavened bread--that's different from what leviticus says. We have in advance cleaned our houses of anything with leavening, whether it is yeast or baking soda or anything else. All wheat products are gone. No beer. The house is thoroughly cleaned so as to remove even any crumbs from shelves or floors. Then for seven days, instead of bread, we eat only Matzah (unleavened bread).

Again, the day in Judaism begins at SUNSET. So evening comes before morning, which comes before afternoon. If you read Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus sends his disciples out on Nisan 14 in the afternoon to make preparations for the Seder Meal in the evening, which would mean Nisan 15, Passover. Jesus would therefore be crucified on the Passover, Nisan 15. But in John, it speaks of the trial of Jesus being on the day of preparation, which would mean that the Last Supper was NOT a Seder meal. This is because John has a theology that Jesus is the Passover sacrifice, thus it was important that he be executed on the day of preparation, Nisan 14.

Since the day begins after sundown (the end of the day), then Jesus sent his disciples out on the afternoon of Nisan 13, so that the Passover celebration could take place on Nisan 14, which is after sundown / sunset.

Jesus had the Passover meal with is disciples on Nisan 14 after sunset, according to what was commanded by his father.
(Exodus 12:17, 18) 17 “‘You must keep the Festival of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day, I will bring your multitudes out of the land of Egypt. And you must keep this day throughout your generations as a lasting statute. 18 In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, in the evening, you are to eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month, in the evening.
(Leviticus 23:5) 5 In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, at twilight is the Passover to Jehovah. . .

On that very day (Nisan 14), Jesus was arrested (the night), and tried and executed (before evening).
His body was taken down from the stake, and buried before sunset / sundown, when the next day - Nisan 15 - would begin.

Spoiler: EVENTS

Nisan 13
(Mark 14:16) . . .the disciples went out, and they entered the city and found it just as he said to them, and they prepared for the Passover.
(Matthew 26:19) . . .the disciples did as Jesus instructed them and prepared for the Passover.

Nisan 14
Nightfall

Meal
(Mark 14:17, 18) 17 After evening had fallen, he came with the Twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, one of you who is eating with me will betray me.”
(Matthew 26:20, 21) 20 When evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to you, one of you will betray me.”
(Mark 14:26 ; Matthew 26:30) Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Last moments with disciples
(Matthew 26:31-36) 31 Then Jesus said to them: “All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’ 32 But after I have been raised up, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” 33 But Peter, in response, said to him: “Although all the others are stumbled in connection with you, I will never be stumbled!” 34 Jesus said to him: “Truly I say to you, on this night, before a rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” 35 Peter said to him: “Even if I should have to die with you, I will by no means disown you.” All the other disciples also said the same thing. 36 Then Jesus came with them to the spot called Gethsemane, and he said to the disciples: “Sit down here while I go over there and pray.”

Arrest
(Matthew 26:47) While he was still speaking, look! Judas, one of the Twelve, came and with him a large crowd with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. (Luke 22:47)
(John 18:1-3) 1 After he said these things, Jesus went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley to where there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it. 2 Now Judas, his betrayer, also knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas brought the detachment of soldiers and officers of the chief priests and of the Pharisees and came there with torches and lamps and weapons.

(Matthew 26:56) . . .Then all the disciples abandoned him and fled. (Mark 14:50)

(John 18:12, 13) 12 Then the soldiers and the military commander and the officers of the Jews seized Jesus and bound him. 13 They led him first to Annas, for he was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.​

Early Morning

Trial
(John 18:28, 29) 28Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the governor’s residence. It was now early in the morning. But they themselves did not enter into the governor’s residence, so that they would not get defiled but could eat the Passover. (Mark 14:53)
29 So Pilate came outside to them and said: “What accusation do you bring against this man?”

Execution
(John 19:1) Pilate then took Jesus and scourged him.
(John 19:15-18) 15 Pilate said to them: “Shall I execute your king?” The chief priests answered: “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 Then he handed him over to them to be executed on the stake. So they took charge of Jesus. 17 Bearing the torture stake for himself, he went out to the so-called Skull Place, which is called Golgotha in Hebrew. 18 There they nailed him to the stake alongside two other men, one on each side, with Jesus in the middle. (Mark 15:15-26)

Removal and burial
(John 19:31) Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away.
(John 19:42) Because it was the day of Preparation of the Jews and the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. (Mark 15:42-46)​

John is not referring specifically to preparation of the Passover of Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this case, was “a great one” (high Sabbath). Not only is it a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15 - the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes (also called Passover), but also as it is a weekly Sabbath.
“Passover” was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival.
(John 19:31) Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away.

Be sure to read carefully, to be clear.

 

[nPeace]

Again, just to clarify, Nisan 14 from sunset to sunset, is the day of preparation when the lambs were offered, and the first day of the week long feast of unleavened bread. Nisan 15, starting at sunset, would be Passover, when the Seder Meals were had.

Nisan 14 is the day of preparation for what... Nisan 15?
So then why do you have a problem with John's account, which refers to preparation for Passover - which is the Sabbath, and here includes Nisan 15 - the festival of unleavened bread?

It's important to remember that this thread is about the Bible, and not Jewish custom, practice, or tradition today.

And a reminder -- this has changed now that there is no temple for sacrifice. We now observe Passover Seder Meals on two nights, Nisan 14 & 15.

Well that's not relevant to this discussion.

IMPORTANT NOTE: what the Chabad rabbi told me is at odds with Leviticus 23:4-8, which states that the Passover is on the 14 and the feast of unleavened bread starts on the 15. I don't know how that came to be. But there is no Torah without oral Torah, so how the rabbis interpreted the Law is really where the rubber meets the road.

Well the rubber does not meet the road for millions who follow these facts.
(Exodus 32:9) Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people.

(Jeremiah 2:8) The priests did not ask, ‘Where is Jehovah?’ Those handling the Law did not know me, The shepherds rebelled against me, The prophets prophesied by Baal, And they followed those who could bring no benefit.

(Jeremiah 5:31) The prophets prophesy lies, And the priests dominate by their own authority. And my own people love it that way. But what will you do when the end comes?”

(Jeremiah 6:13, 14) 13 “For from the least to the greatest, each one is making dishonest gain; From the prophet to the priest, each one is practicing fraud. 14 And they try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly, saying, ‘There is peace! There is peace!’ When there is no peace.

(Jeremiah 23:1-6) 1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares Jehovah. 2 Therefore this is what Jehovah the God of Israel says against the shepherds who are shepherding my people: “You have scattered my sheep; you kept dispersing them, and you have not turned your attention to them.” “So I will turn my attention to you because of your evil deeds,” declares Jehovah. 3 “Then I will gather together the remnant of my sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them, and I will bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and become many. 4 And I will raise up over them shepherds who will really shepherd them. They will no longer be afraid or be terrified, and none will be missing,” declares Jehovah. 5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

I could go on, but I will stop there... at the mention of David.
I asked you about Isaiah 28:16 before, and you didn't respond.
I wonder if you will respond to this one... Who is this David, and when does he come?

Another source of difficulty is that the Festival of Matzos has come to commonly be known as Passover, meaning we Jews today use the label of Passover to refer to the whole week, which is quite different than the Biblical language. Here is a good article on WHY PASSOVER IS ON NISAN 15 https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...hy-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

Again, this is not my area of expertise. I'm only relaying information that I received from the Chabad Rabbi. One website I chanced upon said that the feast of unleavened bread starts on Nisan 15. So I'm confused about this as well. I will be asking a lot of questions about this at the Seder Meal I'm attending this Friday night!!!!

My suggestion to you is in the meantime to ask one of the two rabbis in the forum about this. They are MUCH more qualified to answer this than I am. I've done the best i can, but I feel like my efforts have only increased the confusion. sigh*

Don't get sidetracked . We are discussing the Bible. Not Jewish customs, or beliefs today.
Also, remember it's you I am having the discussion with, and you are challenging the Bible's authenticity. We are not discussing what Jews believe.

No, not wrong. Has it been amended? That is the question. Obviously we cannot offer the Passover sacrifice since there is no temple. So it ultimately has to be amended.

Nothing to amend, as far as the Bible is concerned.

Looks like the Jews need to mend their ways, if they are to amend anything related to scripture.
Unfortunately for them, they made the first mistake of breaking the law covenant worst, by making the second mistake of rejecting the Messiah.
Now they are making the third mistake of rejecting the writings of those Jesus has appointed.
It's only going to go from worst to much more worst, unless they turn around, and adjust their thinking. In other words they need to remove that stiff-neck.

Individuals are actually not following that pattern, but that's what it boils down to - individual benefiting.