How to interpret Revelation 14?

[ruffen]

2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

Does this literally mean that men who have not "defiled" themselves with women are purer than those who have? Even though marriage between man and woman is said to be a holy union created by God?

And what exactly does it mean that these virgin men shall be "firstfruits" to God and the Lamb?

 

[richard50]

There is a very good book called the Apocalypse Epitomised which is a verse by verse exposition on Revelation.
*** Link Removed***

Regards
Richard

 

[Benoni]

Defiled with women speaks of being defiled with religion. A women speaks of the soulish realm another exampkle the great whore Babylon.

Virgin speaks of pure spiritual man and the firstfruitS notice the plural speaks of God's elect

 

[Quagmire]

Easy: John of Patmos was a virgin and he was trying to find some way to make it sound like a good thing.

 

[Pegg]

Does this literally mean that men who have not "defiled" themselves with women are purer than those who have? Even though marriage between man and woman is said to be a holy union created by God?

And what exactly does it mean that these virgin men shall be "firstfruits" to God and the Lamb?

as a others have pointed out, the 'women' often refer to other religions or nations in the bible.

Even in the hebrew scriptures, God speaks of his nation Israel as his wife. And when that nation made allegiances with other nations, the rebuke from God was one of a wife who was committing adultery or prostitution.
Hosea 1:2 There was a start of the word of Jehovah by Ho·se′a, and Jehovah proceeded to say to Ho·se′a: “Go, take to yourself a wife of fornication and children of fornication, because by fornication the land positively turns from following Jehovah.

James 4:4*Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.


In this case, Revelation is referring to those who will rule with Christ in the heavenly kingdom....to be chosen for such a role would require 100% loyalty to God and Christ. No one who defiles themselves with false worship would be given this privileged position. The first people selected for this role were Jesus 12 apostles... most of them were married men with children. So being virgins is not the pre-requisite... but being spiritually clean and pure is.

 

[Benoni]

as a others have pointed out, the 'women' often refer to other religions or nations in the bible.

Even in the hebrew scriptures, God speaks of his nation Israel as his wife. And when that nation made allegiances with other nations, the rebuke from God was one of a wife who was committing adultery or prostitution.
Hosea 1:2 There was a start of the word of Jehovah by Ho·se′a, and Jehovah proceeded to say to Ho·se′a: “Go, take to yourself a wife of fornication and children of fornication, because by fornication the land positively turns from following Jehovah.

James 4:4*Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.


In this case, Revelation is referring to those who will rule with Christ in the heavenly kingdom....to be chosen for such a role would require 100% loyalty to God and Christ. No one who defiles themselves with false worship would be given this privileged position. The first people selected for this role were Jesus 12 apostles... most of them were married men with children. So being virgins is not the pre-requisite... but being spiritually clean and pure is.

The friendship in revelation is the with the whore of Babylon (religion). How can you have 100 loyality to Christ if you are anti Christ?


Being a virgin is a pre-requisite, for you are not defiled by the women (false religion)

 

[ruffen]

Thanks for the answers. How does one know how to interpret passages like this? Who are we to know what is meant literally and what is figuratively?

Also, is this the theological reason for Catholic priests being in celibacy? Or does that have some other origin?


It has always puzzled me, if the words in the Bible are meant by its authors to be really really important information about the world and our relationship with God, why veil it in cryptical allegories to the point where it is unintelligible for those just reading it?

 

[savagewind]

It is interesting to me that in some Bible passages the word is rendered "woman" not "women". So I agree with the other poster who says it means Babylon the Great the mother of harlots. A mother is always a woman.

 

[Benoni]

It is interesting to me that in some Bible passages the word is rendered "woman" not "women". So I agree with the other poster who says it means Babylon the Great the mother of harlots. A mother is always a woman.

God is a Spirit which is not male or female BUT:

God’s Word is written in spiritual patterns, types, parables, shadows from Genesis to Revelations that reveals a deeper reality, then the letter that killeth.

God uses symbolism in scripture and this includes names to hide deep spiritual truths and I really do not think God cares about the plumbing of the person.

What was Adam and Eve before the rib?

Masculine is always spirit or spiritual (man child) Man (spirit) Child (someone open minded spiritually in this case) God is always referred in the masculine with the exception of one of his names (El Shaddai) which is feminine

It has been said there are over two hundred different names for God is scripture; a name speaks of name, nature, character and authority. God is one but has many different natures.

But look at the feminine side of scripture we have the soul, the church, Baby-lon. My point a man can have a soulish type ministry spiritually speaking. But I have meet women who were masculine for their ministries were spirit.

 

[Benoni]

Thanks for the answers. How does one know how to interpret passages like this? Who are we to know what is meant literally and what is figuratively?

Also, is this the theological reason for Catholic priests being in celibacy? Or does that have some other origin?


It has always puzzled me, if the words in the Bible are meant by its authors to be really really important information about the world and our relationship with God, why veil it in cryptical allegories to the point where it is unintelligible for those just reading it?

We trust God's Spirit with in us, not man and His multiple doctrines and religion without. The Holy Spirit is a part of God within each one of us capable of teaching, discerning, seeking, asking and knocking. But we lost our first love and turned towards man because the spiritual realm is way to foreign to our carnal reasoning.

 

[Benoni]

Here it is in scripture.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).

AND:


Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[savagewind]

We trust God's Spirit with in us, not man and His multiple doctrines and religion without. The Holy Spirit is a part of God within each one of us capable of teaching, discerning, seeking, asking and knocking. But we lost our first love and turned towards man because the spiritual realm is way to foreign to our carnal reasoning.

Right on. I person does NOT need to go after the desires of the flesh in the flesh to be considered really carnal. Carnal means man. The Kingdom of God means spirit.

 

[Benoni]

Right on. I person does NOT need to go after the desires of the flesh in the flesh to be considered really carnal. Carnal means man. The Kingdom of God means spirit.

BIG AMEN... God has so many awesome beatiful secrets to show us. But we need spiritual eyes to see, or spiritual ears to hear. man child....

Matthew 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

​

You cannot get this withj any religion, they will reject it.

 

[savagewind]

BIG AMEN... God has so many awesome beatiful secrets to show us. But we need spiritual eyes to see, or spiritual ears to hear. man child....

Matthew 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

​

You cannot get this withj any religion, they will reject it.

Yes! It has been proven over and over and over again that one person cannot see what another person sees.

 

[Benoni]

Yes! It has been proven over and over and over again that one person cannot see what another person sees.

Yes you are right. But what gets amazing is what one person sees, spiritual and another person will see the same spiritually. Outside the camp.

Heb. 13:13
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

Revelation 18:3

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[savagewind]

Yes you are right. But what gets amazing is what one person sees, spiritual and another person will see the same spiritually. Outside the camp.

Heb. 13:13
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

Revelation 18:3

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I am not so sure if we are going off topic or if we are not going off topic but I'd like to say something about Revelation 18:3. There is says "my people". Does it say "those who will be my people"? No. But that is what they teach. They teach that a person can become that ( a person of God) if they obey the rules of the so and so religion whichever it is.

 

[Benoni]

I am not so sure if we are going off topic or if we are not going off topic but I'd like to say something about Revelation 18:3. There is says "my people". Does it say "those who will be my people"? No. But that is what they teach. They teach that a person can become that ( a person of God) if they obey the rules of the so and so religion whichever it is.

Religion restricts and never will allow the deep things of God. Religion looks back to tradition and dogma, a spiritual man looks for the new wine of the spirit, the hidden manna, revealtion. They are both seeking truth in two different directions.

The Mind of Christ:



The religious Mind:

which is far closer to carnal them spiritual; this mind is not open unless you agree with their preconceived idealism, being it Catholic, Pentecostal, JW, Baptist this mind has the mind of what ever agenda listed above or one of the twenty thousand sisters of Babylon. They say they are following Christ (which means anointing) but in reality all they know is their preconceived bias.

God’s Word is like a river that flows:

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.


How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.


Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

 

[nazz]

Does this literally mean that men who have not "defiled" themselves with women are purer than those who have? Even though marriage between man and woman is said to be a holy union created by God?

And what exactly does it mean that these virgin men shall be "firstfruits" to God and the Lamb?

It likely reflects a community that highly valued celibacy.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for the answers. How does one know how to interpret passages like this? Who are we to know what is meant literally and what is figuratively?

usually the bible itself provides the answer to the questions... but you have to let the bible do that.

For example, Rev 14:4*These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.

Now turn over to 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ

Paul is speaking about the christian congregation. It is said to be a 'chaste virgin' who is promised in marriage to Christ.
And now go back to revelation 14 and look at vs 5: *and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
Vs 5 shows that their virginity relates to their conduct... not to their sexuality. If the disciples of christ are chaste and their conduct without blemish....they may be selected to be among the 144,000 who are taken from earth to rule in heaven.

When you put this together, the scriptures are saying that members of the christian congregation make up the 144,000 and they are those who's conduct is without blemish.

Also, is this the theological reason for Catholic priests being in celibacy? Or does that have some other origin?

its a pagan idea... monastic cults were celebate for example. In later centuries, some christian teachers adopted pagan religious ideas and practices into Christianity.

It has always puzzled me, if the words in the Bible are meant by its authors to be really really important information about the world and our relationship with God, why veil it in cryptical allegories to the point where it is unintelligible for those just reading it?

its not cryptic to God and he uses his spirit to impart understanding.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, you are not following Christ. The word Christ means anoiNted. you are following JW logic and reject the anointing of the Spirit of truth.

You are anti anointing... or anti christ.... SAME THING.

yes, you'd said this many times...

The bible tells me what an anti-christ is....

“Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist.” 2*John 7

1John 2:22*Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son


According to the bible, an anti-christ is anyone who denies Jesus as Messiah, and The Father as God.

JW's deny neither. So saying we are anti-christ does not fit with the facts.