How do you feel about Universalists? (Non-Asatruar welcome)

[Zephyr]

I'm not talking about UUs when I say this, but rather universalist "Asatruar."

I personally find the whole concept to be a load of sh...ugar. Asatru is based too much on ancestry to have the non-folkish among us. I see someone without our ancestry "converting" to Asatru as silly as a European trying to become a Sioux.

While I disapprove greatly of universalist asatru or wiccatru or whatever, I'm not going to stop someone from believing what they like. It's unlikely that I will consider them one of my folk, but different strokes eh?

What's your opinion on it?

 

[Ody]

I don't see whats so wrong with it, if they desperatly believe that the aesir exist, why not call themselves Asatruar?

 

[Zephyr]

I don't see whats so wrong with it, if they desperatly believe that the aesir exist, why not call themselves Asatruar?

Asatru isn't about believing that the gods exist. I, for one, certainly don't. I consider them just a way to explain how my ancestors understood the world. Asatru is about heritage. It's about honoring your ancestors. If someone converts to Asatru but doesn't have any Northern European heritage, what's the point? If someone wants to believe in the gods, that's fine by me, but it doesn't make them Asatruar.

 

[Majikthise]

Religious identity based on racial heritage,...huh.
What will they think of next?

 

[Zephyr]

Religious identity based on racial heritage,...huh.
What will they think of next?

I recommend reading some of Darkdale's threads in here. He is much better with words than I am.

Asatru is an ancestral religion. It shouldn't be too hard to understand.

 

[Ody]

I recommend reading some of Darkdale's threads in here. He is much better with words than I am.

Asatru is an ancestral religion. It shouldn't be too hard to understand.

Many would argue that Judaism is an ancestral religion, yet we accept converts.

 

[Zephyr]

Many would argue that Judaism is an ancestral religion,

I would certainly agree with that, especially the more conservative sects like the Orthodox.

yet we accept converts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Orthodox Judaism, isn't conversion a very complex process?

 

[Ody]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Orthodox Judaism, isn't conversion a very complex process?

Yes but it is possible, unlike the messages you seem to be showing me about folkish Asatru.

 

[Zephyr]

Yes but it is possible, unlike the messages you seem to be showing me about folkish Asatru.

Simple. It's about honoring your ancestors. If my ancestors didn't belong to the old tribes, then what would I be honoring by being an Asatruar?

Asatru !=Judaism (I hope I got the symbol right)

 

[Comet]

I'm not talking about UUs when I say this, but rather universalist "Asatruar."

I personally find the whole concept to be a load of sh...ugar. Asatru is based too much on ancestry to have the non-folkish among us. I see someone without our ancestry "converting" to Asatru as silly as a European trying to become a Sioux.

While I disapprove greatly of universalist asatru or wiccatru or whatever, I'm not going to stop someone from believing what they like. It's unlikely that I will consider them one of my folk, but different strokes eh?

What's your opinion on it?

What about somebody that has heritage/ancestry from Northern Europe and say Africa? or a offspring of Sioux and European parents?
(just curious to your view on people with different ancestry/heritage)

 

[Zephyr]

What about somebody that has heritage/ancestry from Northern Europe and say Africa? or a offspring of Sioux and European parents?
(just curious to your view on people with different ancestry/heritage)

While there is no universal opinion on this, I have heard a few takes on it. Some extremists insist that only people with totally pure northern ancestry should bother, but I don't really agree with that. I consider a majority to good enough. Some people have very specific fractions, but I don't care. I would personally just stick with a majority. For instance, back in the 1800s some of my dad's ancestors had to flee from some pogrom because they were Jewish. From this I can determine that I have some Jewish ancestry, but not nearly so much as the rest.

 

[Comet]

While there is no universal opinion on this, I have heard a few takes on it. Some extremists insist that only people with totally pure northern ancestry should bother, but I don't really agree with that. I consider a majority to good enough. Some people have very specific fractions, but I don't care. I would personally just stick with a majority. For instance, back in the 1800s some of my dad's ancestors had to flee from some pogrom because they were Jewish. From this I can determine that I have some Jewish ancestry, but not nearly so much as the rest.

Thanks, was just curious as to your views on that.

 

[KSojourner]

Asatru isn't about believing that the gods exist. I, for one, certainly don't. I consider them just a way to explain how my ancestors understood the world. Asatru is about heritage. It's about honoring your ancestors. If someone converts to Asatru but doesn't have any Northern European heritage, what's the point? If someone wants to believe in the gods, that's fine by me, but it doesn't make them Asatruar.

If Asatru isn't about the gods and is more about honoring ancestors, then by that definition, many people could be considered Asatru as there are many cultures that honor their ancestors. Think about your reasoning here.

Contrary to what you have said, Asatru[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT] IS about the gods. The name itself means "belief in the [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Æsir[/FONT] ." Much of the lore within Asatru is about the gods. When I started to learn more about Asatru, a friend of mine suggested to start with the gods.

Please don't take offense to this, but I would suggest that you read more about your choosen religion. The Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda are a good place to start if you haven't read them yet.

 

[Gentoo]

I'm not talking about UUs when I say this, but rather universalist "Asatruar."

I personally find the whole concept to be a load of sh...ugar. Asatru is based too much on ancestry to have the non-folkish among us. I see someone without our ancestry "converting" to Asatru as silly as a European trying to become a Sioux.

While I disapprove greatly of universalist asatru or wiccatru or whatever, I'm not going to stop someone from believing what they like. It's unlikely that I will consider them one of my folk, but different strokes eh?

What's your opinion on it?

Maybe it's because I know next to nothing about Asatru, but that strikes me as kinda cold. You paralleled a European trying to become a Sioux, well, I'm of entirely European blood (different ethnicities but still all European) but I love Native American beliefs, ways of life etc. I had this longing to learn everything I could and maybe become a part of the ways, but I never tried because of my heritage. And I think that it's because of attitudes like this that stopped me from trying.

 

[KSojourner]

Maybe it's because I know next to nothing about Asatru, but that strikes me as kinda cold. You paralleled a European trying to become a Sioux, well, I'm of entirely European blood (different ethnicities but still all European) but I love Native American beliefs, ways of life etc. I had this longing to learn everything I could and maybe become a part of the ways, but I never tried because of my heritage. And I think that it's because of attitudes like this that stopped me from trying.

I think that if you went to someone who was involved with Sioux religious pratices and had a genuine passion to learn and were able to demonstrate that passion, I don't think that you would be denied access to that information. However, it may take some time "proving" that you were genuinely interested and would take a lot of commitment. And be careful who you are learning from, which is why I would say to contact an organization that is focused on Native American rights. They should be able to point you in the right direction of who you should talk to.

If you are interested and do contact an organization, say that you are interested in knowing more about their practices, current and historic, and would like to sit down and talk to someone if it is a possibility. Be sure to have a reason ready beyond the "Cause I want to learn" typical response.

Don't let attitudes like the above hold you back from learning about what interests you. Good Luck to you!

 

[Gentoo]

I think that if you went to someone who was involved with Sioux religious pratices and had a genuine passion to learn and were able to demonstrate that passion, I don't think that you would be denied access to that information. However, it may take some time "proving" that you were genuinely interested and would take a lot of commitment. And be careful who you are learning from, which is why I would say to contact an organization that is focused on Native American rights. They should be able to point you in the right direction of who you should talk to.

If you are interested and do contact an organization, say that you are interested in knowing more about their practices, current and historic, and would like to sit down and talk to someone if it is a possibility. Be sure to have a reason ready beyond the "Cause I want to learn" typical response.

Don't let attitudes like the above hold you back from learning about what interests you. Good Luck to you!

And it's the proving that can be the problem. To some, no amount of proving yourself will be enough unless you have some predetermined fraction of their heritage. So I've "settled" with incorporating some of their ways into mine. As I've heard said, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

 

[KSojourner]

To some, no amount of proving yourself will be enough unless you have some predetermined fraction of their heritage. So I've "settled" with incorporating some of their ways into mine. As I've heard said, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

"To some" meaning....? Have you contacted someone of Sioux background? If not, you should. It would be the only way to find out if it was possible.

In this case, imitation is NOT the greatest form of flattery. Here is one of the reasons: you don't necessarily know what is behind the symbolism. That is why I say to contact someone of Sioux background. If you contact them, you are showing that you have enough respect of their beliefs to contact them directly to learn.

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

And it's the proving that can be the problem. To some, no amount of proving yourself will be enough unless you have some predetermined fraction of their heritage. So I've "settled" with incorporating some of their ways into mine. As I've heard said, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

I wouldn't let them get you down, Gentoo. The close-minded and ethnocentric aren't exactly the ones that you want to be learning from anyway.

Native Americans who still cling to their traditional spiritual beliefs are a fierce and proud culture. And believe me, many of them will be more than happy to sit down with someone of full-blooded European descent and share their utterly fascinating myths and teachings. Descendants of a purely oral culture, they reiterate their beliefs in the re-telling of these beautiful teachings.

"Native American isn't blood. It is what is in the heart. The love for the land, the respect for it, those who inhabit it, and the respect and acknowledgement of the spirits and elders. That is what it is to be Indian."
- White Feather, Navajo Medicine Man

 

[Zephyr]

If Asatru isn't about the gods and is more about honoring ancestors, then by that definition, many people could be considered Asatru as there are many cultures that honor their ancestors. Think about your reasoning here.

Contrary to what you have said, Asatru IS about the gods. The name itself means "belief in the [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Æsir[/FONT] ." Much of the lore within Asatru is about the gods. When I started to learn more about Asatru, a friend of mine suggested to start with the gods.

Please don't take offense to this, but I would suggest that you read more about your choosen religion. The Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda are a good place to start if you haven't read them yet.

The gods come from the beliefs of our ancestors. In a sense it is about the gods, but moreso about following the ways of our ancestors, of the old Germanic peoples.

Also, I have the eddas, but thanks for the suggestion anyways .

EDIT: Also, my earlier posts were a bit outdated. I've learned quite a bit in these past 9 months. I take a slightly more literal approach to the gods. If they were good enough for my folks, they're good enough for me.

 

[KSojourner]

Also, I have the eddas, but thanks for the suggestion anyways .

I kinda figured that you did, but I thought I would put it out there.

EDIT: Also, my earlier posts were a bit outdated. I've learned quite a bit in these past 9 months. I take a slightly more literal approach to the gods. If they were good enough for my folks, they're good enough for me.

I realized how outdated the post was a couple of hours after I posted to it, so I'm sure you've learned a lot since then. You can learn a lot in nine months.

Thanks for the update! Although, I'm wondering what you mean by "slightly more literal approach." How do you view them now? What changed your mind?