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How can the New Testament be even remotely correct?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Mathematician, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    I really can't see how you think they where copied. If they where copied, why then would there be discrepancies between the two? That makes no sense.
     
  2. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    Hey, i never said they were totally copied in every way, I did say though, that some major sections are almost exact copies(word for word the same). i will post some when i have the time, just now i better be off to my bed. I will try to find one before I go actually. This isn't from mathew and Mark but it's the best I could do in the time

    " Pure Plagiarism
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
    Here
    are two authors, one unknown, in potentially different eras writing the
    same exacting thing word for word


    2 Kings 19



    Writer:
    Unkown


    Era:
    Unkown


    1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah
    heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth,
    and went into the house of the LORD.



    2 And he sent Eliakim, which was over the
    household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered
    with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.



    3 And they said unto him, Thus saith
    Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy;
    for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to
    bring forth.



    4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear all
    the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to
    reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the LORD thy
    God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are
    left.



    5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to
    Isaiah.



    6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye
    say to your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words
    which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria
    have blasphemed me.



    7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and
    he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will
    cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.



    8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king
    of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed
    from Lachish.



    9 And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of
    Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee: he sent
    messengers again unto Hezekiah, saying,



    10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of
    Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee,
    saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of
    Assyria.



    11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings
    of Assyria have done to all lands, by destroying them utterly: and shalt
    thou be delivered?



    12 Have the gods of the nations delivered
    them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph,
    and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar?



    13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the
    king of Arpad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivah?




    14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the
    hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up into the house
    of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD.



    15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and
    said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou
    art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou
    hast made heaven and earth.



    16 LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear:
    open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib,
    which hath sent him to reproach the living God.



    17 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria
    have destroyed the nations and their lands,



    18 And have cast their gods into the fire:
    for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone:
    therefore they have destroyed them.



    19 Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech
    thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth
    may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only.



    20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to
    Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, That which thou
    hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard.



    21 This is the word that the LORD hath
    spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised
    thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken
    her head at thee.



    22 Whom hast thou reproached and
    blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up
    thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.



    23 By thy messengers thou hast reproached
    the LORD, and hast said, With the multitude of my chariots I am come up
    to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon, and will cut
    down the tall cedar trees thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and
    I will enter into the lodgings of his borders, and into the forest of
    his Carmel.



    24 I have digged and drunk strange waters,
    and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of besieged
    places.



    25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have
    done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought
    it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into
    ruinous heaps.



    26 Therefore their inhabitants were of
    small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass
    of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the house tops, and
    as corn blasted before it be grown up.



    27 But I know thy abode, and thy going out,
    and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.



    28 Because thy rage against me and thy
    tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy
    nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by
    which thou camest.



    29 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye
    shall eat this year such things as grow of themselves, and in the second
    year that which springeth of the same; and in the third year sow ye, and
    reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruits thereof.



    30 And the remnant that is escaped of the
    house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit
    upward.



    31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a
    remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of
    hosts shall do this.



    32 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning
    the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an
    arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it.




    33 By the way that he came, by the same
    shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD.



    34 For I will defend this city, to save it,
    for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.



    35 And it came to pass that night, that the
    angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an
    hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the
    morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.



    36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed,
    and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.



    37 And it came to pass, as he was
    worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and
    Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the
    land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
    [/font]​

    [/font]
     
  3. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]VS


    Isaiah 37



    Writer:
    Isaiah, except for maybe chapters 44 - 66

    Era:
    not sure but possibly 696-642 B.C.

    1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah
    heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth,
    and went into the house of the LORD.


    2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the
    household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered
    with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.


    3 And they said unto him, Thus saith
    Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy:
    for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to
    bring forth.


    4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear the
    words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to
    reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the LORD thy
    God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is
    left.


    5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to
    Isaiah.


    6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye
    say unto your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words
    that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have
    blasphemed me.


    7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and
    he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him
    to fall by the sword in his own land.


    8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king
    of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed
    from Lachish.


    9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king
    of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard
    it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying,


    10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of
    Judah, saying, Let not thy God, in whom thou trustest, deceive thee,
    saying, Jerusalem shall not be given into the hand of the king of
    Assyria.


    11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings
    of Assyria have done to all lands by destroying them utterly; and shalt
    thou be delivered?


    12 Have the gods of the nations delivered
    them which my fathers have destroyed, as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph,
    and the children of Eden which were in Telassar?


    13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the
    king of Arphad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah?


    14 And Hezekiah received the letter from
    the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the
    house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. 15 And Hezekiah prayed
    unto the LORD, saying,


    16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that
    dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of
    all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.


    17 Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear;
    open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib,
    which hath sent to reproach the living God.


    18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria
    have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,


    19 And have cast their gods into the fire:
    for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone:
    therefore they have destroyed them.


    20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us
    from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art
    the LORD, even thou only.


    21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto
    Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Whereas thou hast
    prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria:


    22 This is the word which the LORD hath
    spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised
    thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken
    her head at thee.


    23 Whom hast thou reproached and
    blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up
    thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.


    24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the
    Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the
    height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down
    the tall cedars thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will
    enter into the height of his border, and the forest of his Carmel.


    25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with
    the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged
    places.


    26 Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have
    done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought
    it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into
    ruinous heaps.


    27 Therefore their inhabitants were of
    small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass
    of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and
    as corn blasted before it be grown up.


    28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out,
    and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.


    29 Because thy rage against me, and thy
    tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy
    nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by
    which thou camest.


    30 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye
    shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that
    which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and
    plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.


    31 And the remnant that is escaped of the
    house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:


    32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a
    remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of
    hosts shall do this.


    33 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning
    the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an
    arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against
    it.


    34 By the way that he came, by the same
    shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD.


    35 For I will defend this city to save it
    for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.


    36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth,
    and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five
    thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were
    all dead corpses.


    37 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed,
    and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.


    38 And it came to pass, as he was
    worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and
    Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the
    land of Armenia: and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead"

    [/font]
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So God double posted. Big whoop! The Bible happens to be HIS forum! :D
     
  5. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    Okay, so if the gospels aren't eyewitness accounts than they really shouldn't be taken as accurate, and little, if any of the tales were written by eyewitnesses. You mention the virgin birth and Mary visiting the tomb. No one that wrote about these events in the bible was actually there, so how do we know there is any validity to any of it?

    And dan, I'd like to stress again what pandamonk has said, if some of the scripture is obviously become unreliable, How do you know what is actually accurate?! There is NO WAY TO! You are only guessing, if one passage is wrong, it is not only possible but likely that the rest has become scewed and inaccurate.
     
  6. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    You are so right, if the person that wrote the book wasn't there, it should e disregarded. But wait, that means that 99.99% of all history books should be disregarded, because obviously, the authors were not there. Any collage paper that was 'researched' should be given an F because they were not there. Darwin's Theory, throw it out, he wasn't there. Shall I go on? :)
     
  7. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    A lot of history is likely inaccurate, because history is written by the winners, not necessarily the ones that were right. Historians use many different sources, they research many things beyond what is merely said by people of the time. Most historians also believe the bible to be inaccurate and likely written decades if not centuries later (by analyzing dialect and language). Historians do what is called science, as did Darwin, they don't cling to one view merely because it is what was written, they research and find evidence supporting what was written. Darwin's theory of evolution is something that fits most all cases in nature (and with more research, likely all) and makes logical sense if you understand it correctly. It fits, the bible doesn't. You are not researching the bible and its contents, you are just reading it and assuming it to be right.
     
  8. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    Dayv, Most historians? Name 5. :)
     
  9. tkdrocks

    tkdrocks Mellowing with Age

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  10. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    So you are saying God, the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, creator of the universe made a mistake? lol, emm, is that not impossible?
     
  11. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    I would not classify any of those as historians. Just because someone writes a book that is anti-God does not make him a historian. ;)
     
  12. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    Not to answer for the good NetDoc, but God does not err, humans err. And some things are worth repeating, and need to be repeated to get it through our think heads.
     
  13. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.westarinstitute.org/Fellows/Harris/harris.html
    Harris only has a PHD from Cornell and is the chair of the Humanities and Religious Studies department at California State University. So why isn't he a historian? I'm assuming you checked all of their backgrounds before you made that statement!
    Isaac Asimov got a PHD in chemistry though, not History, and the other guys I couldn't see if they had any schooling in history or not. So I won't argue and say they are historians.
    **Edit** after looking some more is that the right Harris? I looked at his book list on his site and he does not mention the book cited here. So could there be two Stephen Harris' writing religious books?
     
  14. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    My point is that most historians would not agree with you. You will always find someone that will say they are an expert, claiming something they try to prove by juggling numbers. Case in point, you can still find experts that claim cigarette smoking is not harmful. That Aids and HIV are not related. It all boils down to whom you believe. If you still wish to believe despite all the posts in this thread that show otherwise, that is your choice.
     
  15. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying most historians believe that the bible is a historical document? That means that all aspects of the bible are historically accurate...

    Now I ask you, name me 5 historians who agree that the creation story in genesis is historically accurate. I do admit that this is a little unfair, however, if some of the bible is merely myth, then unless you have historical evidence, the other parts of the bible could very well be myth. The catholic church believed in the creation story, that is until science proved them wrong with evolution. Now they say, oh, my bad, that must have been a myth to help us learn, not a true thing.
     
  16. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Who would you like to offer as proof that God created the universe and earth. Who would you suggest that we or anybody for that matter should call as a witness? Moses is believed to be the author of Genesis and was chosen and led by God after leaving Eygyptian royalty behind. God revealed to Moses what He accomplished in the beginning. Evolution theory is deeply rooted in science, but fails to completely determine the initial point of origin to the creation of the earth and the life that inhabits it. God does require people to have a measure of faith in the validity and purpose of His Word. If all things were presented to us in a tangible fashion as proof for us to believe completely, because we see it with our own eyes and can reason with our secular mindset, there would be no reason for God to be who He is. I think it is rather foolish of us to underestimate the power of God and the fact that only He can do God-like things, but that is just my personal opinion. :)
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

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    The gospels were written many decades after Jesus' death, by people who never met Him, and the earlier ones, like the Gospel of the Nazarenes, aren't even included in the Bible. Reading descriptions of specific events, such as the discovery of Jesus' empty tomb, reveals how the story is increasingly embellished in subsequent Gospels.

    The Bible is not an accurate historical primary reference.
     
  18. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Incorrect. The synoptic gospels were wrriten, according to many archaelogical accounts, during the period of A.D. 30-70, during the lifetimes of many of Jesus's disciples (Peter, John, Matthew) who followed Christ and walked wit Him during His 3 1\2 year ministry. In addition, authors like Luke and Mark had access to Peter and John to validate accounts that were rampant throughout 1st century Palestine during Jesus's ministry, in addition to many eyewitness accounts of Jesus and His disciples. If you believed Jesus was cruxified on the cross and to this day, there has been no archaelogical evidence of any of His remains, how would this fact invalidate the empty tomb story, which you are claiming to be an embellishment, with no specific proof of it's falsehood. Purley speculative on your part. :)
     
  19. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    Ryan2065, Please don't put words in my mouth, or assume something I never said. Proof of God? Look around you. The trees. Flowers. The birds and their song. As much as man attempts to copy, he cannot come even close the the splender and beauty of these things and more. This is proof enough for me. And like I said in an earlier post, unless you have tried God and inhaled his grace, you will not know what I'm talking about.
     
  20. Voxton

    Voxton ·

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    Even the most superficial glance at the bible gives you a clue that something is amiss.

    What were Jesus' last words before he died? Now remember, he is the main dude in this religion -- if your records are even REMOTELY accurate, you'd expect that they'd make a note of what his dying words were, right?

    Well, Matthew and Mark agrees -- they have it as "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34). But the other two have completely different lines: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 25:46) and "It is finished!" (John 19:30).

    Now, it isn't just that they don't agree on such a basic thing -- the first phrase is one of despair -- the guy thinks his almighty father has given up on him... The other two basically says, "Okay, it's done, I'm ready" -- whereas the other one means "Help! Can I get a hand here, please?"

    Who discovered the empty tomb? Who did Jesus first reveal himself to, after his resurrection? They don't agree on those points either...

    If you've got a couple of witnesses, and their stories match anywhere as poorly as this, hey, you're not gonna trust them -- if you have even a vaguely rational and objective mindset...

    No wonder church leaders resisted having the bible translated into common languages for so long -- they thought people would lose their faith if they saw this stuff. Luckily for the churches -- and sadly for humanity -- people just aren't all that rational. If they really, really want to believe, it takes an awful lot to convince them otherwise...
     
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