How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Carlita - In the end if you cut through all the words, there is is only two ways to look at this. Firstly if Baha'u'llah is who He says He is, to which everything He says and what we share of His Guidance, is Truth.

Secondly, well Baha'u'llah is not who He said He is and thus any thing we share is not the standard of Truth and all you say that is wrong with what was offered, has foundation.

Total indifference is not a choice?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

What I am saying is flying right past your ears. The only way I know you understand what I say is to quote a specific point and refer to that point(s).

Open ended comments leads to more dead-end discussions. If you want to learn something about diversity, address my quotes.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think people have become more individualistic, self-centred and disengaged.There are a raft of social problems that accompany these traits. I believe the problem has a significant spiritual component that s not acknowledged. I often see these problem in patients and the medical model while helpful is limited.

That's probably true along with keeping lines of communication open and finding creative ways of bringing out the best in each person.

I gave this considerable thought, and I'm not so sure about the religious component. Some of my former students that came from religious homes were the most confused. Several had a superiority complex that made it difficult for them to work with others, or on a team. So it was actually incredibly complex, and a whole range of factors came into play. I would put the 'old soul, young soul' idea I've expressed before right up there, but parenting is also a huge factor.

In leagues where I coached and had to travel, often the private Christian schools, or the Catholic schools, were just as notorious or adharmic as the public schools. One Catholic team I played against had older siblings speaking vulgarities to my players as they served. (volleyball) The referee was aghast in disbelief, and had to boot them out of the gymnasium.

 

[Vinayaka]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

What I am saying is flying right past your ears. The only way I know you understand what I say is to quote a specific point and refer to that point(s).

Open ended comments leads to more dead-end discussions. If you want to learn something about diversity, address my quotes.

I'm not sure if this is a strategy, or a habit, but I've encountered it as well. Quick change of topic to avoid discussion. Not sure if it's intentional or not. Frustrating in a discussion like this. If I went back through this thread, I could probably find a dozen unanswered questions. Not that I'm actually volunteering to do that.

Dealing with the atheism question was certainly one of them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please reply by quoting my points and replying to them. Take your time because I think you are just not getting it. I can't discuss anything if you're not taking time to understand what I'm saying. I quote you, reply to your quotes, even reply to Bahaullah's quotes and Buddhas and if you kept up even posted Suttas, so I'm not ignorant. Please address my posts or be divided. It's your choice. Unity or division.

Did I miss the understanding in those quoted passages?

Yes, you did. If you are not practicing from a Buddhist perspective-that means culture not just reading suttas, meditating, and having compassion, then you'd understand it as part of your being. There is a difference between academic knowledge and wisdom. Anyone can read the suttas and interpret the in a good way. It's not like GOA religions that have an "truth or not" point of view-Bahai included. Just if you did practice, the way you conversate will reflect it since The Buddha taught how to converse when it comes to talking about the Dhamma and religions.

What makes you think that a Baha'i does not put into Practice what Buddha taught?

The more I read of Buddhism, the more I find things like this "Tolerance is a key Buddhist virtue, whilst maintaining integrity to one’s core beliefs." "..They follow many different forms of Buddhism, but all traditions are characterised by non-violence, lack of dogma, tolerance of differences.."

There is no reading as the core of practice. It's not like god where you can pray and feel the love. It's totally different worldview. So much difference that it feels I'm talking elementary telling a child the difference between someone born in India and someone born in Jerusalem have different views in life based on their cultural norms. An older child would understand that at surface level.

I find Core Practices are

Ethics
Meditation
Prayers
Chanting/Reciting the Words

Thank you for inspiring more study of Buddha and what he taught. It is indeed a world embracing oneness that has great Tolerance for all.

You are missing a boat load of teachings and practices. These any religion have. But Buddhism goes deeper into it. Something you'd have to practice.

I would have supplied more information about the importance of Unity and Tolerance, as I did in the reply above to your next post.

There is no tolerance in unity.

How you define unity is based on god and the prophets. That is not unity.

I don't know how you don't see it.

It is not negative. If you are allowed to disagree and think of differences, you may get diversity better than surface level.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not sure if this is a strategy, or a habit, but I've encountered it as well. Quick change of topic to avoid discussion. Not sure if it's intentional or not. Frustrating in a discussion like this. If I went back through this thread, I could probably find a dozen unanswered questions. Not that I'm actually volunteering to do that.

Dealing with the atheism question was certainly one of them.

I know what you mean. I don't think it would help to go through the threads even if you had time. I have a feeling it isn't intentional but even though some Christians can be hard-headed, they at least know "they are right and I am wrong" and will say it to my face, lol. Not a nice tactic but one to learn from coming from a universalist trying to unify differences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In every faith and in life we are taught that Pride always blinds us to New frames of reference, it hinders our path to Truth

Māna - Māna - Wikipedia

"Develop the mind of equilibrium. You will always be getting praise and blame, but do not let either affect the poise of the mind: follow the calmness, the absence of pride." Gautama Buddha, Sutta Nipāta

What we read of Buddha, must become the Practice and this is what Baha'is will discuss, what did Buddha want us to Practice?

It is not about what man wants to practice to say they are Buddhists.

Regards Tony

That's interesting as in Burmese language the word Mana means pride too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Total indifference is not a choice?

Vinayaka, Yes indifference is not a choice, but this prayer came to thought, "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I can change nothing except my own heart and it is not me that even does that. Knowing this, I weary very quickly of Old World though and I am very happy to point out that is exactly what it is and move on to shared thoughts of Unity. Division and Exclusivity in ones Belief can no longer feed the progress of Humanity. How hard is it to look at how what we believe may indeed have common foundations?

That opinion need not be backed from a quote from any Faith, that opinion can be confirmed by an observation of our Current World and the way it it being directed by those in control of its affairs. The prejudices that abound.

So why 'Why' subject each other to continuous negativity.

Be well, be happy, be a Lover of Unity in our Diversity. Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

We have successfully and successively established law and order on a state and national scale and just need to bring it to the international arena. It's just the next step but an important one if we are to curtail oppression and despotism.

Also things like collective security are required for our age but there is much fear associated it , however , I don't think it's because these concepts are unsound, but because those who fear it fear justice and being brought to account so do not endorse it nor things like a world tribunal...

What laws have worked better for states and nations? Secular law or Religious law?

 

[Vinayaka]

Vinayaka, Yes indifference is not a choice,

So one is either to believe in Baha'u'llah or not believe in his divinity.. What duality! It sets up the 'us versus them' (Some say good versus evil) mentality so well. What a way to divide humanity!

Sorry, but I am indifferent, whether it's acceptable to Baha'i' or not. It's the option I choose to exercise. So too with Christ, with all prophets. it's not part of my paradigm. Millions of people have never heard of Baha'u'llah. Dismaying yes? The fact that they all get along quite nicely is even more amazing.

 

[CG Didymus]

Who told you the NT are the most authoritative writings in the world? The Christians told you of course. The first actual fragment of a gospel is from the gospel of John dated during the second century, over a hundred years after Christ was crucified. Then it is just a small fragment of one book of the entire NT.

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

While it is probably incorrect to say the Hadith is as authentic as the NT, the Quran on the other hand is almost certainly more authentic than the NT if dating of original texts is the standard. There is a copy of the Quran very similar to the version today that is dated within 70 years of Muhammad's revelation.

"In the 20th century, the Sana'a manuscript was discovered. It has been dated to 632-671 AD. The manuscript has exactly the same verses and the same order of verses as the standard Qur'an. The order of the suras in the Sana'a codex is different from the order in the standard Qur'an. The manuscript contains some variants to the standard Qur'an, in terms of differences in words, sub-word elements and vowels."

History of the Quran - Wikipedia



I make no apologies for believing that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for his day. I recognise the Divine origins of all the major world religions. Through this thread I've come to appreciate how God has made Himself known, even in regions that have never heard of any of the manifestations. Many believe their view of the universe is the best way. Are you any different?

You switched from "authoritative" to "authentic". I'm talking about as being supposedly "The Word of God". The NT is the Christian Word of God. The Qur'an is the Islamic Word of Go. The Hadiths you mentioned sound like they are only from one sect of Islam. So what do the other sects of Islam think of them? Even for that sect are they considered "The Word of God"?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not sure if this is a strategy, or a habit, but I've encountered it as well. Quick change of topic to avoid discussion. Not sure if it's intentional or not. Frustrating in a discussion like this. If I went back through this thread, I could probably find a dozen unanswered questions. Not that I'm actually volunteering to do that.

Dealing with the atheism question was certainly one of them.

I do not think anyone would want to go back to those questions

There is no strategy in sharing what one has found out about life and God, it is but Gods Gift that we can share our journey in life or Faith.

In the end it is noted that a lot of questions just go around in circles and are just the same question asked in another way. A lot of observations are aimed at negating Virtues to the status of Vices. Why continue with that line of questioning and answers? If anything is worth while, then lets go to something that we find is a Unity in thought.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It could be the only division are those that are looking to find it

Personally I choose to find the connections, I choose to pursue all of what is from Love, that which is Virtues and that which but binds and creates. We are but One Humanity on the planet earth, our home.

Always be happy Carlita, I leave it at that.

Regards Tony

Hey Tony, This goes back to your Mom being a Christian. Religious beliefs divide you. You being her son bind you. Although she doesn't think you're in a "true" religion, does she see the positive changes in you? But where do you go in a religious discussion without the differences coming to the forefront?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not think anyone would want to go back to those questions

There is no strategy in sharing what one has found out about life and God, it is but Gods Gift that we can share our journey in life or Faith.

In the end it is noted that a lot of questions just go around in circles and are just the same question asked in another way. A lot of observations are aimed at negating Virtues to the status of Vices. Why continue with that line of questioning and answers? If anything is worth while, then lets go to something that we find is a Unity in thought.

Regards Tony

You have to confront the other person's differences, their communication style, their truth, and their context in order to find unity or greater peace. We get beyond the bias, the assumptions, the lack of physical and/or intonations and actually put some effort in understanding each other.

I was telling @loverofhumanity that it starts with you; it starts here.

I've only seen less than a handful of threads in the debate section, surprisingly, that people actually walked away without fussing. They learnt something. Maybe not something new but a different perspective. They were civil about it. I just observed since everything was going so well. No one argued. There was a lot of division. Positive division. RF should have a genius world records for these things. It would be nice to look back on it and say, "wow, it is worth coming here because I actually want to learn something from this place."

But it defeats the purpose for any universalist to come to RF, really. Yes, we can talk about differences, but if you are not challenged for the logic of your belief (as we are always challenged with ours), what are you wanting to learn that you don't already know or agreed to?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So one is either to believe in Baha'u'llah or not believe in his divinity.. What duality! It sets up the 'us versus them' (Some say good versus evil) mentality so well. What a way to divide humanity!

Sorry, but I am indifferent, whether it's acceptable to Baha'i' or not. It's the option I choose to exercise. So too with Christ, with all prophets. it's not part of my paradigm. Millions of people have never heard of Baha'u'llah. Dismaying yes? The fact that they all get along quite nicely is even more amazing.

Vinayaka, this is just saying the same thing I offered to Carlita, in another way.

Yes there is Belief in Baha'u'llah and then there is Indifference and we can then say there is also Rejection. Above Indifference is gaining some knowledge of, that can build levels of Respect for the Person and the Message given.

This is from Abdul'baha

"..Indifference breeds deterioration. Silence is the cause of retrogression. Thoughtlessness leads to forgetfulness. Passivity, inaction, produce oblivion. Consequently do ye not seek one moment of rest by day or by night. Nay, rather strive after composure of heart in the heaven of Unity...."Compilations : Baha'i Scriptures Part 5

"..Know that there are two kinds of torment: subtile and gross. For example, ignorance itself is a torment, but it is a subtile torment; indifference to God is itself a torment; so also are falsehood, cruelty and treachery. All the imperfections are torments, but they are subtile torments. Certainly for an intelligent man death is better than sin, and a cut tongue is better than lying or calumny. Abdu'l-Baha : Some Answered Questions

Indifference will not be conducive to a greater Unity of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[new]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

I feel god is goodness or the one who is good all the time always and Krishna is god or the one who is good all the time. Goodness is always influential and so Krishna is also inspiring.
when we follow goodness or good scriptures by goodness itself or by the one who is good the time like krishna then it motivates and help us to have meaning of life which is to stay good in all moments i feel. goodness always existed and is eternal. and goodness is power. more good we are more powerful we are.
yes we are always in need of goodness . goodness is need and not just a choice .

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony, This goes back to your Mom being a Christian. Religious beliefs divide you. You being her son bind you. Although she doesn't think you're in a "true" religion, does she see the positive changes in you? But where do you go in a religious discussion without the differences coming to the forefront?

Good observation

Consider there is only One Party in this Binding that thinks there is a Division of Faith and a Divide between Baha'u'llah and Christ.

My mother sees that all I offer in Love is a deception of Faith, that Evil is the guiding motive. She offers prayers, (God Bless her always), that Christ guides me to the right path, the only way to God which is Christ.

So...

But where do you go in a religious discussion without the differences coming to the forefront?

One can not offer a discussion that will not end in differences, so silence is golden. If one party is not at all interested in pursuing and acknowledging all the good that binds, where can a conversation go. I offer not so she will give up her Love, but to offer that others also have that Love.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You have to confront the other person's differences, their communication style, their truth, and their context in order to find unity or greater peace. We get beyond the bias, the assumptions, the lack of physical and/or intonations and actually put some effort in understanding each other.

I was telling @loverofhumanity that it starts with you; it starts here.

I've only seen less than a handful of threads in the debate section, surprisingly, that people actually walked away without fussing. They learnt something. Maybe not something new but a different perspective. They were civil about it. I just observed since everything was going so well. No one argued. There was a lot of division. Positive division. RF should have a genius world records for these things. It would be nice to look back on it and say, "wow, it is worth coming here because I actually want to learn something from this place."

But it defeats the purpose for any universalist to come to RF, really. Yes, we can talk about differences, but if you are not challenged for the logic of your belief (as we are always challenged with ours), what are you wanting to learn that you don't already know or agreed to?

Good question

What I look for is the comments that Bind that Unite us as Humanity. Thoughts from other faiths and peoples that can add to a Unity in a Diversity, there is so much we do not know. We come to support those thoughts, we come to share in those thoughts, we come that others may consider those thoughts.

I have found many of those thoughts in the Hindu Writings, thoughts I would have not found if discussion was not had on RF.

Each time more wisdom is gained, one is always learning.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I feel god is goodness or the one who is good all the time always and Krishna is god or the one who is good all the time. Goodness is always influential and so Krishna is also inspiring.
when we follow goodness or good scriptures by goodness itself or by the one who is good the time like krishna then it motivates and help us to have meaning of life which is to stay good in all moments i feel. goodness always existed and is eternal. and goodness is power. more good we are more powerful we are.
yes we are always in need of goodness . goodness is need and not just a choice .

Wonderful, Great to meet you. I too have found that gift of seeing Good in God and Krishna and that is very inspiring.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I do not think anyone would want to go back to those questions

Certainly the Baha'i' here don't. They were avoided the first time, so it must have made somebody uncomfortable. I wasn't speaking of circular questioning, but yes that's happened a lot too.

But I understand the strategy. Avoidance of what appears as negative to the listener. I'm also not going to stick around long or answer ignorant questions about my faith if I figure they're just meant as insults or to hassle.