How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

And my point was this conversation made no sense, from the dharmic perspective. So therefore the 'conversation' and dream itself is suspect. Suppose you had a dream and the prime minister of Australia was playing cricket inside a house of Baha'i'? Would you consider that a prophetic dream?

The dream was only an example that one can travel in the world of the spirit and that the spirit isn't tied to the body and can have spiritual conferences in other realities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes Carlita. You've pointed out a problem which does exists no matter what we say about oneness or unity. We will be judged on what we say about those beliefs that matter to other people. So we expect to be 'crucified' because what Baha'u'llah is saying is not appeasing or conciliatory but often damning and He rebukes, like Christ before Him, religious leaders and figures for some of what ray teach and claims the He is the One Who knows the real truth. This will not go down well with religious orthodoxy but I don't think it was ever meant to.

I think Baha'u'llah's Writings in many ways want to make a break with past Faiths and want to draw a line and revolutionalise the current concepts and ideas going around and that have been going around for thousands of years.

But through words


What proof would you accept?

You won't be crucified, though. It's the way you present your words not what you present in my opinion. You can say humans can fly without being in an airplane for all I care. I just experience first hand cultural appropriation does more harm than good. The Jews had a right to be angry at jesus. I wouldn't kill him for it; and, it makes sense.

You do understand when you say "Krishna pointed to GOA" someone will correct you regardless if it is your belief or not? I mean, if I'm in a math classroom and the teacher corrected my math problem, and I pulled out a book that said 2 and 2 is 6 and believe that the truth, my belief doesn't mean anything. The facts are it does not.

Since we are in a math-class-of-life, when someone presents you with facts of their belief and you give them opinions of theirs, it's no crucifixion, it's just correcting you on your error. If you didn't believe in unity, that could slide. Since you do, it does not. Accept the correction. It's no longer we-bahai.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Maybe tomorrow. Or by Friday, anyway.

Not Friday, I have to go to Jamia Mosque and offer my namaz.

 

[Kirran]

Not Friday, I have to go to Jamia Mosque and offer my namaz.

That's OK, Baha'i can do that.

 

[Vinayaka]

The dream was only an example that one can travel in the world of the spirit and that the spirit isn't tied to the body and can have spiritual conferences in other realities.

As can all people. Baha'u'llah wasn't unique in this way. I've met my Guru in dreams too. As far as I know the only people who might not be able to do this are those souls so bogged under anava that can't see it, or be aware of it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You won't be crucified, though. It's the way you present your words not what you present in my opinion. You can say humans can fly without being in an airplane for all I care. I just experience first hand cultural appropriation does more harm than good. The Jews had a right to be angry at jesus. I wouldn't kill him for it; and, it makes sense.

You do understand when you say "Krishna pointed to GOA" someone will correct you regardless if it is your belief or not? I mean, if I'm in a math classroom and the teacher corrected my math problem, and I pulled out a book that said 2 and 2 is 6 and believe that the truth, my belief doesn't mean anything. The facts are it does not.

Since we are in a math-class-of-life, when someone presents you with facts of their belief and you give them opinions of theirs, it's no crucifixion, it's just correcting you on your error. If you didn't believe in unity, that could slide. Since you do, it does not. Accept the correction. It's no longer we-bahai.

Do you believe in Krishna and Hinduism because you pass a lot of comments about Him as if you are a Hindu.

You won't be crucified, though. It's the way you present your words not what you present in my opinion. You can say humans can fly without being in an airplane for all I care. I just experience first hand cultural appropriation does more harm than good. The Jews had a right to be angry at jesus. I wouldn't kill him for it; and, it makes sense.

You do understand when you say "Krishna pointed to GOA" someone will correct you regardless if it is your belief or not? I mean, if I'm in a math classroom and the teacher corrected my math problem, and I pulled out a book that said 2 and 2 is 6 and believe that the truth, my belief doesn't mean anything. The facts are it does not.

Since we are in a math-class-of-life, when someone presents you with facts of their belief and you give them opinions of theirs, it's no crucifixion, it's just correcting you on your error. If you didn't believe in unity, that could slide. Since you do, it does not. Accept the correction. It's no longer we-bahai.

GOA means God of Abraham right?

 

[loverofhumanity]

As can all people. Baha'u'llah wasn't unique in this way. I've met my Guru in dreams too. As far as I know the only people who might not be able to do this are those souls so bogged under anava that can't see it, or be aware of it.

A lot of dreams I find are mostly trivial but I have had some very meangful ones although very few.

 

[Vinayaka]

A lot of dreams I find are mostly trivial but I have had some very meangful ones although very few.

In my sampradaya, we are taught nor to analyse dreams.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you believe in Krishna and Hinduism because you pass a lot of comments about Him as if you are a Hindu.

GOA means God of Abraham right?

I have been reading this thread. I do wonder if you have been reading all of it. Carlita has mentioned many many times about her religion, and has explained what GOA means several times. You say you are reading and understanding, but these questions would certainly indicate to the contrary.

It would be like me asking you if you are Baha'i', and live in Australia. You'd be wondering about my memory for sure.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I did not know about GOA, but I did not ask. Many a times, things become clear in the next few posts as it happened here. Otherwise also, reference to GOA did not matter much in this topic.

 

[Vinayaka]

Otherwise also, reference to GOA did not matter much in this topic.

Actually it did, Aup. I've been in this very long thread since the beginning. As with many other discussions the word 'God' just refers to the GOA. For dharmic faiths with a different understanding of God than that, it's really relevant because the Baha'i' and the non-Baha'i' are talking two different things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you believe in Krishna and Hinduism because you pass a lot of comments about Him as if you are a Hindu.

No. When you experience harm from cultural appropriation in different minority groups (In America), religious, race, gender, and language, you tend to find a common thread on how the majority sees these groups (and others), how we are affect as a group, and how we are influenced by how other groups are affected. Even more so, even though minority groups here in America are drastically different, there is a shared line of discrimination in some cases and cultural and religious "stealing" in others. It's not specifically Bahai. Though, since we are all human, the mindset is the same just going by our RF conversations and your descriptions of Bahai belief.

I don't know about others, but I've always been a "support/defend other people" type of person. Posts ago, I said I went to a native american reservation. I'm African American. We both have racial prejudices because of the color of our skin and culture. My family arrived to the reservation, and one lady took one look at us out of hundreds of "white people" and said "Look Minorities!" she continued after my mother's initial shock. She was happy that people who "shared their pain and history" came and not just white people coming to steal their culture.

We have a couple of Hindu temples around. If I believed in god, had the means to understand the culture not just the belief, and sat with a guru, I would probably be Hindu. Though, because I'm more artistic (freedom of expression rather than discipline and ritual) I don't have that personality to practice as one.

Edit: Also, Lover, if you have actively read my posts you would have noticed every time I referred to something specific about Hinduism, I'd page @Vinayaka about it. He has corrected me a couple of times but from the little I know, my overall points are still the same.

GOA means God of Abraham right?

Yep. Didn't know if you caught it or not.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have been reading this thread. I do wonder if you have been reading all of it. Carlita has mentioned many many times about her religion, and has explained what GOA means several times. You say you are reading and understanding, but these questions would certainly indicate to the contrary.

It would be like me asking you if you are Baha'i', and live in Australia. You'd be wondering about my memory for sure.

This is a question I asked Carlita.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. When you experience harm from cultural appropriation in different minority groups (In America), religious, race, gender, and language, you tend to find a common thread on how the majority sees these groups (and others), how we are affect as a group, and how we are influenced by how other groups are affected. Even more so, even though minority groups here in America are drastically different, there is a shared line of discrimination in some cases and cultural and religious "stealing" in others. It's not specifically Bahai. Though, since we are all human, the mindset is the same just going by our RF conversations and your descriptions of Bahai belief.

I don't know about others, but I've always been a "support/defend other people" type of person. Posts ago, I said I went to a native american reservation. I'm African American. We both have racial prejudices because of the color of our skin and culture. My family arrived to the reservation, and one lady took one look at us out of hundreds of "white people" and said "Look Minorities!" she continued after my mother's initial shock. She was happy that people who "shared their pain and history" came and not just white people coming to steal their culture.

We have a couple of Hindu temples around. If I believed in god, had the means to understand the culture not just the belief, and sat with a guru, I would probably be Hindu. Though, because I'm more artistic (freedom of expression rather than discipline and ritual) I don't have that personality to practice as one.



Yep. Didn't know if you caught it or not.

Thanks very much for clarifying that. I was going to ask you then Adrian asked and I tried to look for it then I thought if I thought about it I'd figure it out and luckily I did.

I do read your posts. Sometimes many times and sometimes I can't understand some sentences so I guess and that's probably why you get an answer that doesn't make sense to you. My fault.

Often the author knows the meaning of what they write but not every reader does, so I apologize. Lately either I have understood you better or you have been a lot clearer or both but I feel it's a little easier to communicate. It's probabaly upbringing and culture too mixed in.

Also I'm ignorant on many a matter and the first to admit it. So at first I was struggling to understand why you were saying we insulted other religions beliefs. Now the penny has dropped.

I know we have things like morals and ethics in common but the way we view other Prophets and Holy Books can make and will likely make people very angry as that is what they've believed all their lives only for us outsiders to come along and say it's not true. Or we have a truer interpretation.

Eventually a severe contest cannot be avoided. Once we move past the moral and ethics part then the business of what we really believe will be challenged and we are told, will result in worldwide opposition to the Baha'i Faith where we will be shunned and persecuted all over the world.

What can we do? We can only emphasize the oneness of mankind but for those who want to eliminate our religion they will want to highlight the more comflciting topics like that we believe Buddha taught about God or reincarnation or that our view that resurrection of Christ was not literal. On all these counts we will be opposed severely and we are told that this must come to pass that it cannot be avoided.

So you are right although you put it in a way I didn't understand. Yes many Faiths will see us as an insult just by our core beliefs and to be done away with. In Iran it began and now Yemen and slowly the west.

But I don't believe this will happen until massive numbers of people enter the Faith. For instance, once religions begin losing substantial numbers to Baha'is then they will see us as a threat and I think then we will see worldwide opposition.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks very much for clarifying that. I was going to ask you then Adrian asked and I tried to look for it then I thought if I thought about it I'd figure it out and luckily I did.

I do read your posts. Sometimes many times and sometimes I can't understand some sentences so I guess and that's probably why you get an answer that doesn't make sense to you. My fault.

Often the author knows the meaning of what they write but not every reader does, so I apologize. Lately either I have understood you better or you have been a lot clearer or both but I feel it's a little easier to communicate. It's probabaly upbringing and culture too mixed in.

Also I'm ignorant on many a matter and the first to admit it. So at first I was struggling to understand why you were saying we insulted other religions beliefs. Now the penny has dropped.

I know we have things like morals and ethics in common but the way we view other Prophets and Holy Books can make and will likely make people very angry as that is what they've believed all their lives only for us outsiders to come along and say it's not true. Or we have a truer interpretation.

Eventually a severe contest cannot be avoided. Once we move past the moral and ethics part then the business of what we really believe will be challenged and we are told, will result in worldwide opposition to the Baha'i Faith where we will be shunned and persecuted all over the world.

What can we do? We can only emphasize the oneness of mankind but for those who want to eliminate our religion they will want to highlight the more comflciting topics like that we believe Buddha taught about God or reincarnation or that our view that resurrection of Christ was not literal. On all these counts we will be opposed severely and we are told that this must come to pass that it cannot be avoided.

So you are right although you put it in a way I didn't understand. Yes many Faiths will see us as an insult just by our core beliefs and to be done away with. In Iran it began and now Yemen and slowly the west.

But I don't believe this will happen until massive numbers of people enter the Faith. For instance, once religions begin losing substantial numbers to Baha'is then they will see us as a threat and I think then we will see worldwide opposition.

I appreciate this post. If it were possible, it doesn't really have to be that way. I disagree with human sacrifice but christians will swear up and down that it's not "real human" sacrifice and it is at the same time. Yet, if it weren't real, then christ need not have to die. If it were real, it is, by OT to NT a human sacrifice, then christians can be saved. The resurrected needs to be real for christians to go to god. I don't think we graduated into valuing life.

My coworker, when she had her first child, lifted the infant in the air and told god that his life was in your (god's) hands. That honestly creeped me out. People believe god more than life itself.

In this case, you believe in your religion at the expense of someone else's religion. There are many contradictions in many beliefs (more than one). I haven't met one in Buddhism and no violence in the suttas that I've found so far. That's refreshing. I wouldn't say it's only God of Abraham religions, but those who believe in him have that mindset. I honestly can't understand it Bahai and manifestations aside. It's just odd. I rather get to know Brahma than God of Abraham personally.

Outside of that, I do try to make my posts short, separate them (since you said you can read them better when they are in points rather than paragraphs), and watch the grammar and spelling. I type fast so once I finish, I realized I typed a whole page. That's why I say take your time. That, and it's 11:30 a.m. here, so I wouldn't expect you to reply there (New Zealand?) when it's, what 3:31am there?

I honestly just think you're not understanding. Culture has a lot to do with it.

 

[Vinayaka]

This is a question I asked Carlita.

Yes I know.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes many Faiths will see us as an insult just by our core beliefs and to be done away with. In Iran it began and now Yemen and slowly the west.

These are both Islamic countries. How can you generlise Islam into 'all religions'. Two Islamic countries with heavy fundamentalist leanings do not a world make. I've seen this mistake quite often. It's sad.

You were welcomed in India, in America, in New Zealand, in Australia. in Canada. Wherever freedom of religion is practiced, the Baha'i's will be welcome.

Everyone besides Muslims would be persecuted in those countries, so join the crowd, I guess.

So to me, it just seems like a massive jump from religious philosophical differences to religious persecution. Do you actually see them as one and the same? Are we persecuting you by disagreeing with you?

 

[CG Didymus]

We're working on it. We are much younger than the others.

Conquest has been an undeniable part of history. However, alone that does not account for the great world religions having endured millennia. They have each produced a narrative and theology that have brought meaning, hope, and inspiration to their followers.

In the early 70's my Baha'i friends were going on teaching trips that were designed to bring mass declarations. They talked about "entry by troops." That's close to 50 years ago. What happened?

What you say is very interesting. Conquest by Christians and Muslims happened. The religions of the conquered were replaced by the religion of the conquerors. Was their religion the truth? Wouldn't you agree that the two religions had already added "traditions" of men and had erroneous interpretations, according to Baha'is, of their Scriptures?

Like no matter if it was Catholicism or one of the Protestant sects, what was taught to the conquered people was wrong. Each had Jesus as God. Each had the devil and hell. So how did this wrong narrative and theology bring meaning, hope, and inspiration to their followers? I'd have to say that a religion have to be true... to be believed as true.

Of course some things in these religions bring positive results, but what about the negative things caused by religious belief? So, considering the teaching of these religions had some false notions, how did they and how do they endure?

 

[CG Didymus]

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

One interpretation is that although they crucified Him they did not kill His spirit. In this manner there is no contradiction.

...The Hadith are based on alleged sayings, actions, and habits of Muhammad. The matter of succession and the imams is what separates the Shi'ite from the Sunni. The Baha'is side with the Shi'ites on this matter.

But the quote says that they didn't crucify him. And what would it prove to say they didn't kill his spirit? If people believe that the spirit is immortal, then of course they couldn't kill it?

So on the Hadith. It sounds like they fall into the category of "traditions" of men.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the early 70's my Baha'i friends were going on teaching trips that were designed to bring mass declarations. They talked about "entry by troops." That's close to 50 years ago. What happened?

Good observation. From my experience we did not have the vision of what mass conversion required. it required a Unity of effort on a grand scale, an effort we are just beginning to envisage.

Regards Tony